Woah! Incredible!! You really nailed me here. I'm so ashamed, you caught me
using quickly googled production numbers in my post from four pages back. What gave it away? Drat!! I should have
known I couldn't pull one over on a swift you, and I therefore must clearly deserve your ponderous contempt!
Could it be when i wrote this bit ?
"Some production numbers here (
just googling, so correct me if I'm wrong)"
The reaction to the corrections indicates the invitation to make them is rather like the company slogan "Customer is number one", getting the embarrassing bit out of the way in the title, rather than sincerity.
One minor correction though - America's Hundred Thousand, while a great resource (and which I like many here have on my shelf) which does refer to primary sources, is not itself a primary source.
Quite correct, but it is known several people reading have the book so can see production figures for themselves. Apparently the web search was preferred to the book, why?
Francis Dean in America's Hundred Thousand has a table of the 8 main WWII fighter types, by numbers produced but has differences with the USAAF Statistical digest.
The big difference is the P-40 production June to August 1942, Dean says 560 the Digest says 1,158. As a result mainly of this Dean's P-40 production grand total is around 600 less than other references at 13,143, versus 13,738 in the digest for example.
For the P-39 the period July to November 1942 Dean says 835 produced the digest says 784. Overall Dean says 9,547 P-39s built, the digest says 9,588.
Interestingly the P-38, 47, 51, 61, 63, Buffalo, Wildcat, Hellcat and Corsair breakdowns by model type all are totalled on the page, and the totals agree with the table at the front of the book. The P-39 and P-40 breakdowns by model do not have a total, indicating somebody noticed a problem.
P-38, Dean includes the production of F-4 and F-5 (unarmed reconnaissance versions of the P-38) under P-38. His monthly figures are identical to the digests except for August 1944 when he is 2 less. He also has the 1945 yearly total include 3 aircraft not accounted for in the monthly totals. There were 500 F-4 and F-5 produced, plus other P-38s were converted.
P-47, identical
P-51, as with the P-38 the reconnaissance version of the P-51, the F-6 is included in the totals, but not the A-36 variant. The two sources are identical to the end of 1944.
Wildcat, the digest gives only yearly totals, and they are consistent with Dean as are the Hellcat figures, once you know the 1942 Hellcat (10) and 1943 Wildcat (100) production at Grumman.
P-40, until June 1942 the figures are close to identical (difference of 2 in January 1941, 1 in May 1942, out of around 4,770 built to end May 1942). Then comes the upheaval, table is date, Dean, Digest,
6/42 / 282 / 347
7/42 / 135 / 421
8/42 / 143 / 390
Totals / 560 / 1158
Normal service then resumes in September, with Dean being 1 less than the digest, same total in October, Dean 3 more in November, same total in December 1942. The figures are then identical until deliveries end in November 1944.
P-39, until July 1942 the figures are close to identical (difference of 1 in April 1942 out of around 1,425 built to end April 1942). Then comes the upheaval, table is date, Dean, Digest,
7/42 / 255 / 170
8/42 / 309 / 60
9/42 / 0 / 132
10/42 / 3 / 145
11/42 / 268 / 277
Totals / 835 / 784
Normal service resumes in December, Dean being 3 less. The figures are then identical until deliveries end in August 1944.
Corsair, apart from the Statistical Digest's yearly figures Barrett Tillman in The F4U in World War II and Korea gives monthly figures until December 1945, Dean gives monthly figures until December 1944. It is interesting that the figures he gives in the table are not consistent, the monthly figures do not always add up to the yearly totals, the yearly figures are also different from those in the Corsair chapter.
Dean's yearly totals from 1940 to 1945 in the table are given as,
1, 0, 178, 2293, 5380, 3578
Putting the monthly numbers into a spreadsheet the totals are
1, 0, 178, 2287, 5440, 3578 (there is only a yearly total for 1945)
Go to the Corsair chapter and the numbers are
1, 0, 178, 2298, 5372, 3578.
Barrett Tillman's figures are
0, 0, 178, 2298, 5372, 3567 (3385 January to August 1945) (so he misses the 1940 delivery of the prototype).
The USAAF digest's figures are
0, 0, 178, 2293, 5380, 3387 (to end August) so around 3569 for 1945, Using Tillman's figures for September to December 1945.
Following my analysis, detailed below, I make the figures as
1, 0, 2293, 5380, 3385 (to 8/45) or 3567 for all of 1945 with the note
the 1945 figures are the least certain and Dean claims another 11
Corsairs were built in 1945.
So the overall totals are Dean table grand total 11,484, the table's yearly figures 11,430, adding up the monthly figures 11,484, but a typo of 60 aircraft reduces this to 11,424, Tillman 11,415, Digest 11,420 using the Tillman figures for the final 4 months of 1945.
Differences between Dean, Tillman
10/42 Dean 1 more
11/42 Dean 1 less,
8/43 Dean 6 less, assume Dean in error, as this means the totals then add up to the Digest total Naval fighters figure for the month. It also means the Dean yearly total for 1943 equals the sum of the monthly totals instead of being 6 more.
1/44 Dean 1 more, assumed correct as the numbers then add up to the Digest total.
2/44 Dean 60 more, this appears to be a typo, the Hellcat production figure copied into the Corsair column, using the Tillman figure means the totals then add up to the Digest figure.
Dean's monthly figures stop in December 1944.
Everyone makes mistakes "Geoffrey", as you have done repeatedly in this thread. It's ok to admit when you do, just own up! But you always ignore corrections, deny numbers that you don't like, and blatantly, ponderously, fudge numbers, omit data that (it turns out after you are called on it) you clearly had access to, simply because you are trying to paint a narrative that you prefer over whatever the data shows.
Yes it is the attempt at truth by repeating the same phrases over and over, evidence is irrelevant. And again accusations of making up data, with hiding data now added. Think of it this way, convince yourself the bad guys will rape, loot and murder, which makes them real bad, so in the name of the greater good the good guys can lie, cheat and steal, which makes them real good. So the accusation is not including all the data deemed relevant, from the person who complains my messages are too long.
At least this keeps some junk history from being posted, though plenty of people clearly think the price is too high.
This is why there is really no reason to ever read your posts.
Says someone who did a line by line reply and really needs selective reading.
If the claimed Axis losses in the MTO are correct the allied fighters were collectively poor performers, disguised by major over claiming.
Well I heard that British Commonwealth pilots were worse shots than the French. Seems legit, right?
One of the anecdotes Christopher Shores liked to tell is the shock even experienced RAF fighter pilots felt when taking a course at the RAF Central Gunnery School. The one constant in the Mediterranean Air War series is the daily listings of combat losses and claims, makes it easy to see over claiming.
Meantime a bunch of campaign loss figures were provided which, if correct, indicated major problems with allied fighter claims, the figures were given once without attribution and apparently must not be seen again, as the answer above shows. They also contradict sources like the USAAF Statistical Digest.
If you think finding accurate production data is hard try losses. So were the loss figures provided
1) Due to enemy action?
2) On operations?
3) By combat units?
4) Include write offs?
5) Include the whole air force?
6) non combat losses?
In mid 1943 the allies in the Mediterranean had the 9th, 12th, Strategic, Coastal and Desert air forces, plus Malta Command and Middle East Command, with probably some Coastal Command operating out of Gibraltar. So were they all included?
Similar for the axis, the forces in East Africa, the Western Desert, Greece, Italy, later Tunisia and France.
Other topics,
Some of the 15th Air Force 1945 monthly reports have Engine Change Reports, graphs of average running time per aircraft engine changed. Generally speaking the R-1830 radials in the B-24 and the R-1820 radials in the B-17 had at least an average of 300 hours running when changed, few had 400, with the R-1820 ahead, most having 350 or more hours. Overhauled engines usually had around half the average hours of new engines. The V-1650 Merlins and the V-1710 Allisons usually averaged over 200 hours, few made it to 300 until March/April. Overhauled Allisons were around half the new engine hours, overhauled Merlins more like a quarter.
Defiant, prototype to F.9/35 two set day and night fighter, turret armament amidships, speed similar to single seat fighters, provision for small bombs. Hawker Hotspur prototype also built, Hotspur ordered from Avro in 1936 but order cancelled.
First 5 Defiant built in September 1939, with 16 by end 1939, monthly production hit double figures in March 1940.
264 squadron received its first Defiant in December 1939, while 141 replaced its Gladiator and Blenheim If with Defiant April/May 1940
January 1940 trials with 2 squadron, army co-operation
mid February 1940 264 squadron night flying began
February/March 1940 multiple trials against bomber formations, a single one on one with a Spitfire, Defiant won convincingly.
6 May 1940 Fighter Command first reports Defiant on strength, 1 squadron, 16 aircraft, though 264 squadron is reported to have become operational mid March.
4 June 1940 Fighter Command reports 2 Defiant squadrons on strength, with 25 serviceable aircraft between them.
Case History of Fighter Plane Range Extension Program, Parts I and II," USAF Historical Research Document 202.2-11, 22 February 1945, Enclosure 1." Note lack of fuel reserves. AFHRA Reel A2069 Page 1658 dated 6 August 1943, calculations, not flight tests.
P-39N 7,700 pound take off, 120 gallons internal, 52 Gallons for 5 minutes War Emergency Power & 15 minutes Military Power, 40 Gallons used during Warm-up, Take-off, and Climb, 38 miles Horizontal Distance on Climb to 25,000 feet, range 156 miles
Note lack of fuel reserves. AFHRA Reel A2069 Page 1621 dated 20 November 1942, at 16,000 feet, calculations, not flight tests.
P-39N, 120 gallons internal fuel, 75% power, 331 mph TAS, range 600 miles
P-39N, 120 gallons internal fuel, 50% power, 267 mph TAS, range 760 miles
