An early Me 264

[cherry blossom]

Since some "handwavium" powered aircraft such as a 1940 Fw 190 have been considered, it seems relatively plausible to imagine that Messerschmidt in 1937 might have been encouraged to build a bomber that could carry the Olympic Flame from Berlin to Tokyo. Let us assume that his team comes up with something very like his later Me 264 on the timescale of the Me 261's early development. However, whereas the Me 261 development was almost abandoned from August 1939, let us assume that the German Navy has already fallen in love with this early Me 264 and manages to keep development going so that the first prototype flies during the Winter of 1939-40 as planned for the original Tokyo flight.

If the Navy pushes for development to be as fast as possible, is it plausible that a few aircraft can attack ships in the South Atlantic during 1941? Might the idea of attacking the Urals also start to be attractive? Of course, flying to Tokyo is also possible and a Me 264 could carry radar sets or early jet engines.

One issue is engines. Possibly the initial design could use 6 Jumo 211s with the idea of using 4 Jumo 222 A-1s in production. Did the Jumo 222 A-1 with the 135 mm bore actually work beyond passing a 100 hour test? Did it need more tin than could be found for a limited production run? Could Navy demands have stopped Junkers abandoning the A-1 for an "improved" version with the 140 mm bore, which suffered from serious vibrations.

Another issue is whether the Me 264 had good or bad flying characteristics. Various test pilots produced apparently contradictory reports especially on issues such as flutter.

 

[Howard Gibson]

Since some "handwavium" powered aircraft such as a 1940 Fw 190 have been considered, it seems relatively plausible to imagine that Messerschmidt in 1937 might have been encouraged to build a bomber that could carry the Olympic Flame from Berlin to Tokyo. Let us assume that his team comes up with something very like his later Me 264 on the timescale of the Me 261's early development. However, whereas the Me 261 development was almost abandoned from August 1939, let us assume that the German Navy has already fallen in love with this early Me 264 and manages to keep development going so that the first prototype flies during the Winter of 1939-40 as planned for the original Tokyo flight.

I have William Green's Bombers and Reconnaissance Aircraft Volume 10 here. The Me261 was originally intended to carry the Olympic flame non-stop to Tokyo. The aircraft was to used the DB606 and DB610 engines that helped make the He177 not work.

The smart move would have to been to not start World War II. You have the resources required to make the DB606 work, and to complete the aircraft in early 1940. If there is no demand for DB601s, you could use four of those. It helps that the 1940 Tokyo Olympics would not have been cancelled. Green quotes a range of 6850 miles at economical cruising speed. I doubt this is anywhere near enough to reach Tokyo. Drop tanks?

I cannot be bothered to look this up. I believe that some variation of the Junkers Ju90 was flown to Japanese airfields in China, but this was later in the war, and BMW801s probably were involved.

 

[Shortround6]

record setting (either speed or distance) airplanes seldom make good combat aircraft. One reason they are able to set records is that a lot was sacrificed to lighten (structure) the plane to set the record.
Like the FW 200 was a long range record setter, prestige airliner. It tended to break during overloaded take-offs/landings, over loaded compared to it's original design.
It worked, sort of.
It did the 4000 mile (6400km) flight from Berlin to New Yok city on 10/11 August 1938.
A lot of the 1930s record setters were overloaded, flew low and slow.
Trying to fly the 5549 miles (8900km) from Berlin to Tokyo might have been doable. But are you going to get a useable warplane out of it? Even for maritime recon?

Did the Jumo 222 A-1 with the 135 mm bore actually work beyond passing a 100 hour test?

It doesn't seem so. It took months to get even a 1/2 dozen Prototype aircraft into the air with them and at least one manufacturer was sort of alternating between the Jumo 222 and DB 606/610s and BMW 801 just to get something to fly so they could work on the low speed fight areas.
Once you start trying to sling 2000-3000kgs of cargo into a plane (or more?) things get a lot tighter, That is 2000-3000 less fuel than the record setter has.
Berlin to Japan may be one way flights. Might depend on the wind currents. Granted the route would be mostly polar but if the prevailing wind is against you things don't look good for return flights. There were times in the 1950s when US to Europe trips, depending on destination city, were non-stop only on the west (US) to east (Europe) legs. Flying from Europe to the US almost always had a fuel stop scheduled in.

 

[tonycat77]

You'd need the german navy to have a lot more prestige, they were always the 3rd rate force, even though Churchill was irrationally terrified of them and the damaged, unfueld Tirpitz still convinced the brass into stucking the majority of the carrier and battleship force in the north atlantic until it was sunk.
Jutland ends in a larger loss ratio for the RN, or maybe the british attempt to flush them out in 1918 by convincing a baltic invasion was finally coming to, killing the 1918 mutiny as the sailors start to believe germany proper might be in danger, instead of scapa flow, the german fleet is sunk bravely in combat, achieving mythical status in weimar and then nazi germany.

 

[Snautzer01]

3rd rate force

Tell that to the thousends being killed by u-boats. Tonnage of supplies under the sea is unbelievable.
Yes also navy.

The german navy force was sooo 3rd grade, a substatial part of home fleet stayed...yes at home.

The german canoes did not even have to get out of port to harm the allied war efford. In air raids ships bound to port commando raids etc..

Now tell me again ... 3rd raid force.

Those ships when let loose could do extremely much damadge to supply convoys.

The were thought of as very very dangerous.
And then there were the subs.

3 rd nah dont think so.

The Allies, narrowly, had a very late victory, in this theatre.

 

[tonycat77]

Tell that to the thousends being killed by u-boats. Tonnage of supplies under the sea is unbelievable.
Yes also navy.

The german navy force was sooo 3rd grade, a substatial part of home fleet stayed...yes at home.

The german canoes did not even have to get out of port to harm the allied war efford. In air raids ships bound to port commando raids etc..

Now tell me again ... 3rd raid force.

Those ships when let loose could do extremely much damadge to supply convoys.

The were thought of as very very dangerous.
And then there were the subs.

3 rd nah dont think so.

The Allies, narrowly, had a very late victory, in this theatre.

Maybe so, but the kriegsmarine never got the funding nor the political backing it needed.
The Luftwaffe seriously curtailed their plans for ju-290s, fw 200 only became a patrol aircraft because the ijn had ordered before the war and they got pressed into service, etc.
The carrier air wing was demanded to be Luftwaffe controlled, the carrier program suffered several setbacks.