Another 10-15 thousand Spitfires, 1938-45?

[tomo pauk]

Similar to the '30000 Fw 190s' - find a way for the British/Allies to both acquire and use an added vast number of Spitfires in ww2 time frame. The 'zero sum game' applies - something else will not get produced so we can have abundance of Spitfires. Fighters of short or long range, recons armed and unarmed, fighter- and dive-bombers - every role can use Spitfires. Engines - V12s are good, but don't let this limits you. Guns - whatever was suitable and in production at Allied side, or what you find suitable. Extra points in making Spitfire better suited for mass production.
The navalized Spitfires are also good thing (if not ideal), even the twin-fuselage version goes.

Historical Spitfire Mk.I is the starting point. Basic airframe and wing remain as historical in shape & size, so does the outward-retracting U/C.

 

[Kevin J]

Similar to the '30000 Fw 190s' - find a way for the British/Allies to both acquire and use an added vast number of Spitfires in ww2 time frame. The 'zero sum game' applies - something else will not get produced so we can have abundance of Spitfires. Fighters of short or long range, recons armed and unarmed, fighter- and dive-bombers - every role can use Spitfires. Engines - V12s are good, but don't let this limits you. Guns - whatever was suitable and in production at Allied side, or what you find suitable. Extra points in making Spitfire better suited for mass production.
The navalized Spitfires are also good thing (if not ideal), even the twin-fuselage version goes.

Historical Spitfire Mk.I is the starting point. Basic airframe and wing remain as historical in shape & size, so does the outward-retracting U/C.

In the thirties, what do you need? An interceptor, a night fighter, and an air superiority fighter. As you go into the forties, it becomes clear that you need escort fighters, fighter bombers and rocketeers. Clearly, there are better planes to the Spitfire out there for some of these roles. Spitfires are needed earlier in the Med, the Pacific and the CBI. Several hundred, yes, but not in their thousands.

 

[Denniss]

You may run into shortages with the aluminium industry unless you are willing to sacrifice bomber production. Plus the elliptic wing cost more time to produce

 

[tomo pauk]

You may run into shortages with the aluminium industry unless you are willing to sacrifice bomber production.

This is why I've noted that something else does not get produced. An odd 1000 Defiants might be a good start. More SPitfires = less needs for Hurricanes, so we can shave many hundreds of those; Hurricanes still used a lot of aluminium. For example, there was 1400+ Hurricanes made in Canada, so let's make Spitfires instead.
Another savings in aluminium can come with not making worthless aircraft (Botha), and/or again trimming down of some other that have questionable level of utility past the 1st couple of years of ww2 (Blenheim).

Plus the elliptic wing cost more time to produce

Elliptic wing is blamed for someone else's fault. That 'someone else' is the manufacturing technique that required the ribs to be built up from several different L shaped metal parts (similar problem was with Italian fighters). Unlike the Bf 109, P-36/40 or Typhoon, that have had 1-piece ribs made from stamped sheet metal. Spitfire's main spar was also bulit-up piece.
Spitfire wing internals
Typhoon cutaway

 

[Kevin J]

This is why I've noted that something else does not get produced. An odd 1000 Defiants might be a good start. More SPitfires = less needs for Hurricanes, so we can shave many hundreds of those; Hurricanes still used a lot of aluminium. For example, there was 1400+ Hurricanes made in Canada, so let's make Spitfires instead.
Another savings in aluminium can come with not making worthless aircraft (Botha), and/or again trimming down of some other that have questionable level of utility past the 1st couple of years of ww2 (Blenheim).



Elliptic wing is blamed for someone else's fault. That 'someone else' is the manufacturing technique that required the ribs to be built up from several different L shaped metal parts (similar problem was with Italian fighters). Unlike the Bf 109, P-36/40 or Typhoon, that have had 1-piece ribs made from stamped sheet metal. Spitfire's main spar was also bulit-up piece.
Spitfire wing internals
Typhoon cutaway

I'd disagree about the Defiant being useless. It was the only two seater fighter with radar available in any numbers until Beaufighter production got in its stride. By the time the Defiant is being used as a target tug, there are plenty of Spitfires available.
The Roc I believe is pretty useless, manufactured by Boulton Paul. I'd go for BP making a float plane version of the Martin Baker MB 2 instead, say 50 for the Norwegian campaign, followed by another 86 with fixed undercarriage for use instead of Martlet I's up in the Shetland Islands instead of the Martlet I or maybe with floats to use instead of the Hurricat, then you can recover them after use. BP can make another 140 instead of new production Defiant TT3, this time with folding wings and retractable undercarriage a La MB1. Notice I'm freeing up Hurricanes and Martlets for use in the Far East.
Instead of the Henley, Gloster builds the Hurricane so now we don't need those Austin built Hurricanes. Get them to build some Spitfires. Even 450 would have been useful in 1942/43.
Instead of Blackburn Botha, Bristol Bombay. Instead of AW Albemarle, Bristol Freighters, a development of the Bombay.
We only need a few hundred extra Spitfires, not thousands.
Certainly, no HP Hereford, build Harrows. We were seriously short of transports everywhere.

 

[The Basket]

The only guaranteed way to get squillions of Spitfires is to licence it to the Yankee Doodles.

 

[Shortround6]

I'd disagree about the Defiant being useless. It was the only two seater fighter with radar available in any numbers until Beaufighter production got in its stride. By the time the Defiant is being used as a target tug, there are plenty of Spitfires available.

This is mistaken. The defiant Nightfighters did not get radar until Sept of 1941, well after the night Blitz was over and a year after the Beaufighters started to get radar. I am not sure that any radar equipped Defiant ever shot down a German airplane airplane. I could be wrong but the effect was minimal. Non-radar Defiants did have some successes in the spring of 1941 before the Germans left to go play in Russia. Return on investment in Defiants was pretty dismal on the whole.

The Roc I believe is pretty useless, manufactured by Boulton Paul. I'd go for BP making a float plane version of the Martin Baker MB 2 instead, say 50 for the Norwegian campaign, followed by another 86 with fixed undercarriage for use instead of Martlet I's up in the Shetland Islands instead of the Martlet I or maybe with floats to use instead of the Hurricat, then you can recover them after use. BP can make another 140 instead of new production Defiant TT3, this time with folding wings and retractable undercarriage a La MB1. Notice I'm freeing up Hurricanes and Martlets for use in the Far East.

trouble is this float MB2 is a total fantasy airplane. You need so many changes to the MB 2 to get it to work that there is darn little left of the original MB2.

Note the ventral fin and the larger than normal vertical fin/rudder to stabilize the plane with the floats. Also note the float planes used 4 bladed props.
The MB 2 had already been modified twice to enlarge it's Vertical fin and Rudder for normal use.
Using the Dagger engine would have been a score for the Germans. Replace with Merlin? except it is a liquid cooled engine and not air cooled so weight goes up. and you need a lot more design work. Merlin III without 100 octane may not give desired power. Use Merlin VIII?

Certainly, no HP Hereford, build Harrows. We were seriously short of transports everywhere.

The record of the Hereford is a bit confusing, 150 were ordered, How many were completed is subject to question. Some accounts say some were finished as Hampdens while still on the Production line. Some accounts go so far as to claim that some planes completed as Herefords were re-engined with Pegasus engines and converted to Hampdens. Some accounts say only 8 were converted.
The Harrow is better than a Ju 52 but a lot less effective than a DC-3.

 

[Kevin J]

This is mistaken. The defiant Nightfighters did not get radar until Sept of 1941, well after the night Blitz was over and a year after the Beaufighters started to get radar. I am not sure that any radar equipped Defiant ever shot down a German airplane airplane. I could be wrong but the effect was minimal. Non-radar Defiants did have some successes in the spring of 1941 before the Germans left to go play in Russia. Return on investment in Defiants was pretty dismal on the whole.



trouble is this float MB2 is a total fantasy airplane. You need so many changes to the MB 2 to get it to work that there is darn little left of the original MB2.

View attachment 581519
Note the ventral fin and the larger than normal vertical fin/rudder to stabilize the plane with the floats. Also note the float planes used 4 bladed props.
The MB 2 had already been modified twice to enlarge it's Vertical fin and Rudder for normal use.
Using the Dagger engine would have been a score for the Germans. Replace with Merlin? except it is a liquid cooled engine and not air cooled so weight goes up. and you need a lot more design work. Merlin III without 100 octane may not give desired power. Use Merlin VIII?



The record of the Hereford is a bit confusing, 150 were ordered, How many were completed is subject to question. Some accounts say some were finished as Hampdens while still on the Production line. Some accounts go so far as to claim that some planes completed as Herefords were re-engined with Pegasus engines and converted to Hampdens. Some accounts say only 8 were converted.
The Harrow is better than a Ju 52 but a lot less effective than a DC-3.

The ROI of the Defiant as a night fighter was pretty dismal, but it scored more victories than the more numerous Hurricane night fighters during the Blitz IIRC, the Spitfire was totally unsuitable as a night fighter.
You must remember that I spent 30 years in developing new computer systems, making things up as I went along, so I see some potential in the MB 2 that perhaps you, whom I'm sure would have ended up in Quality Control, perhaps can't imagine. Also I have the benefit of hindsight.
I think the Dakota was better than almost all transports. My imagination tells me that more transports in the Far East in 1941/42 could have made it difficult for the Japanese to advance as far and fast as they did.

 

[Shortround6]

The ROI of the Defiant as a night fighter was pretty dismal, but it scored more victories than the more numerous Hurricane night fighters during the Blitz IIRC, the Spitfire was totally unsuitable as a night fighter.

The trouble is that the rate of engagement or rate of actual intercepts (for get actual shoot downs) as a percentage of missions flown was was so low as to be almost impossible to draw any valid conclusions from. The Rate of actual shoot downs for ALL nightfighters put together in some months over the winter did not exceed single digits and in one month there may have been no shoot downs by any type of nightfighter. It wasn't until Feb/March that shoot downs really went to double digits and that is for ALL nightfighters combined. April and May got much better real quick. The first two weeks of May saw almost as many claims as the preceding 6 months put together. More Beaufighters? Better radar? More experience? Shorter nights? Better weather in general?
How much of the Defiants success was due to any attributes of the plane (two pairs of eyeballs as sensors) and how much was due to pure luck I have no idea but the margin is small. What we also don't know (perhaps someone does) is how many airplanes and crew were lost over the winter flying these near hopeless missions.
I would note that the ROI on the Hurricane may be better as you can use them for other things, like day fighter.

I think the Dakota was better than almost all transports. My imagination tells me that more transports in the Far East in 1941/42 could have made it difficult for the Japanese to advance as far and fast as they did.

If you want a real what if.
Two DC-2s were built for Poland using Britisol Pegasus engines.
Airspeed took out a licence for the DC-2 with the designation A.S. 23 for aircraft to be imported to England in a semi-disassembled state with final assembly to preformed after unloading from ship/s. One regesterian was reserved but in the end the no aircraft were purchased or assembled in England.
Why this was so is difficult to understand. From Wiki
" As a token of this, KLM entered its first DC-2 PH-AJU Uiver (Stork) in the October 1934 MacRobertson Air Race between London and Melbourne. Out of the 20 entrants, it finished second behind only the purpose-built de Havilland DH.88 racer Grosvenor House. During the total journey time of 90 hours, 13 min, it was in the air for 81 hours, 10 min, and won the handicap section of the race. (The DH.88 finished first in the handicap section, but the crew was by regulations allowed to claim only one victory.) It flew KLM's regular 9,000-mile route, (a thousand miles longer than the official race route), carrying mail, making every scheduled passenger stop, turning back once to pick up a stranded passenger, and even became lost in a thunderstorm and briefly stuck in the mud after a diversionary landing at Albury racecourse on the very last leg of the journey."

Please note the race was about 6 months before the H.P. 51 flew and two years before the actual Harrow and over 7 months before the Prototype Bristol Bombay and 4 1/2 years before the first Bombay was ready for service use.

So you have the engineering work done to fit Pegasus engines to the DC-2. You have a company in England signed up to be a sales agent, and assembler of DC-2s and all years before either British transport sees squadron service.

 

[tomo pauk]

Okay, so we have BP making Spitfires (1000 instead of Defiants, plus whatever they make after 1941 - another few thousand?), Canadian production (1000-1500?). That is still half of what is needed. So we'd have to introduce the stamped sheet elements en masse, and/or to throw the Typhoon uder the bus...

 

[Kevin J]

The trouble is that the rate of engagement or rate of actual intercepts (for get actual shoot downs) as a percentage of missions flown was was so low as to be almost impossible to draw any valid conclusions from. The Rate of actual shoot downs for ALL nightfighters put together in some months over the winter did not exceed single digits and in one month there may have been no shoot downs by any type of nightfighter. It wasn't until Feb/March that shoot downs really went to double digits and that is for ALL nightfighters combined. April and May got much better real quick. The first two weeks of May saw almost as many claims as the preceding 6 months put together. More Beaufighters? Better radar? More experience? Shorter nights? Better weather in general?
How much of the Defiants success was due to any attributes of the plane (two pairs of eyeballs as sensors) and how much was due to pure luck I have no idea but the margin is small. What we also don't know (perhaps someone does) is how many airplanes and crew were lost over the winter flying these near hopeless missions.
I would note that the ROI on the Hurricane may be better as you can use them for other things, like day fighter.



If you want a real what if.
Two DC-2s were built for Poland using Britisol Pegasus engines.
Airspeed took out a licence for the DC-2 with the designation A.S. 23 for aircraft to be imported to England in a semi-disassembled state with final assembly to preformed after unloading from ship/s. One regesterian was reserved but in the end the no aircraft were purchased or assembled in England.
Why this was so is difficult to understand. From Wiki
" As a token of this, KLM entered its first DC-2 PH-AJU Uiver (Stork) in the October 1934 MacRobertson Air Race between London and Melbourne. Out of the 20 entrants, it finished second behind only the purpose-built de Havilland DH.88 racer Grosvenor House. During the total journey time of 90 hours, 13 min, it was in the air for 81 hours, 10 min, and won the handicap section of the race. (The DH.88 finished first in the handicap section, but the crew was by regulations allowed to claim only one victory.) It flew KLM's regular 9,000-mile route, (a thousand miles longer than the official race route), carrying mail, making every scheduled passenger stop, turning back once to pick up a stranded passenger, and even became lost in a thunderstorm and briefly stuck in the mud after a diversionary landing at Albury racecourse on the very last leg of the journey."

Please note the race was about 6 months before the H.P. 51 flew and two years before the actual Harrow and over 7 months before the Prototype Bristol Bombay and 4 1/2 years before the first Bombay was ready for service use.

So you have the engineering work done to fit Pegasus engines to the DC-2. You have a company in England signed up to be a sales agent, and assembler of DC-2s and all years before either British transport sees squadron service.

I agree about the 2 sets of eyeballs are better than one. Never knew about the Pegasus powered DC-2.

 

[Kevin J]

Okay, so we have BP making Spitfires (1000 instead of Defiants, plus whatever they make after 1941 - another few thousand?), Canadian production (1000-1500?). That is still half of what is needed. So we'd have to introduce the stamped sheet elements en masse, and/or to throw the Typhoon uder the bus...

Canada isn't going to produce the Spitfire. In 1939 when they took the decision to produce the Hurricane, the Hurricane was still the better fighter. The Defiant is still a valid concept and unlike the Spitfire, can be used as a night fighter. Perhaps we should throw the Manchester under the bus, use the engines to power Tornados, so 400 of them, and go straight to the Lancaster. So that's an extra 378 Spitfires available for overseas use in addition to those 300 Spitfires rather than Hurricanes thar Austin built.
So build MB2, extra 136 Hurricanes for Far East. Austin builds 300 Spitfires. That's 678 extra Spitfires for Middle and Far East in 1942. No Defiant TT3, so extra 140 MB2'S freeing up another 140 Hurricanes for Far East in 1942. No Henley, build Hurricanes. Better still Austin never builds the Battle, builds Spitfires and you're up to an extra 1800 extra Spitfires, more than enough. So you now have both surplus Spitfires, lots and Hurricanes.

 

[tomo pauk]

Another two sources that were making Spitfires historically might be pushed earlier in their role - Castle Bromwich factory, and Westland. For the Westland to make Spitfires earlier, this will require them not making Whirlwinds (sorry) and Welkin (yes!).
C.B. factory was a trainwreck until too long, the working force, unions, management etc. could've used some 'friendly persuasion' so their output matters already by BoB.

 

[Shortround6]

Okay, so we have BP making Spitfires (1000 instead of Defiants, plus whatever they make after 1941 - another few thousand?), Canadian production (1000-1500?). That is still half of what is needed. So we'd have to introduce the stamped sheet elements en masse, and/or to throw the Typhoon uder the bus...

Throw the Typhoon under the London double decker.

that ought to get you about 10-15,000 more engines ;0

 

[tomo pauk]

Now that we have a much increased number of Spitfires coming from factories, what to do with them? Obviously, the fighter units that will otherwise get the Defiants and Whirlwinds get the Spitfire now. A surplus of Spitfires also means that Hurricanes can be shipped earlier away from the UK - Egypt & Malta by mid-1940. Both Hurricanes and Spitfires to Malaya, Soviet Union and Australia by 1941? Early adoption of Sea Hurricane and hooked Spitfire?
An early effort to get as many Spitfires into production and use can also mean that Spitfire gets Merlin XX by mid-1940...

 

[The Basket]

C.B. factory was a trainwreck until too long, the working force, unions, management etc. could've used some 'friendly persuasion' so their output matters already by BoB.

Send them to the Gulag

 

[Kevin J]

Throw the Typhoon under the London double decker.

that ought to get you about 10-15,000 more engines ;0

Throw the Manchester under the bus and get 400 Tornadoes then the Fw 190a has a superior adversary. No need to lose 400 Spitfires in 1941 which are then available in the Med.