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French Army making a piggy-back on the Navy's 75mm guns (like this one here) would've saved them both the time and the coin.There were Schneider studies called 75mm S.A.A. 750 or 800 throughout the 30s (after 1929) which make me think that the company may have had 750 or 800 m/s designs with superior ballistics to the service French AA 75mm gun (715 m/s).
Not sure were this is going. Or how to get to where you want to be. The WW I 1 1/2pounder pom pom (37mm) used a smaller diameter and shorter case than the WW I 2pdr pom-pom gun. It had a lot less power. The American 37mm Army AA gun used a 63mm longer cartridge case than the 2pdr and the case body was fatter. The American 37mm was around 1/2 way between the British 2pdr of WW I vintage (and the 1920s/early 30s) and the WW II high velocity version. High being relative and they dropped the shell weight from 900g to 760g to help get the extra 120ms of velocity.To start the ball rolling - Japanese make the 37mm version of the 2pdr pom pom, that in the ideal case - at least for them - might've netted them a gun in the league of the US 37mm AA gun.
We do have the advantage of 20/20 hindsight and we know that the rockets did not work, aside perhaps for morale. Spray and pray was also not really a good option so better sights/aiming systems and ease of control (training and elevation rates) are more important than many people give credit to. French and Japanese fell victim to this with the 13mm and 25mm Hotchkiss guns.Under the 'alternatives', it is not just the guns, but also the projectiles, rockets & their launchers, and what to favor - weight of fire or perhaps the range, for the same/similar weight & price of a device?
Now we are getting into both interior ballistics and external ballistics.The Oerlikon FF(F) was a reasonably popular gun. It will not do well as an anti-aircraft cannon, though, since even in the MG FFM version, the MV was sedate, touching 700 m/s. One remedy for this might've been the introduction of an even lighter Mine shell (obviously for the Germans), talk ~70g instead of 92g, or the introduction of a light 'normal' HE shell, again of perhaps ~70g? A bit hotter loaded, but not too much, 10% extra; a muzzle barrel? Might've pushed the MV to 800 m/s.
It is going towards the 2pdr pom pom being necked down to 37mm, firing a lighter shell in a barrel that Japanese are making in, for them, good numbers, so they MV is up to snuff, and so is the availability of the reasonably powerful gun.Not sure were this is going. Or how to get to where you want to be. The WW I 1 1/2pounder pom pom (37mm) used a smaller diameter and shorter case than the WW I 2pdr pom-pom gun. It had a lot less power. The American 37mm Army AA gun used a 63mm longer cartridge case than the 2pdr and the case body was fatter. The American 37mm was around 1/2 way between the British 2pdr of WW I vintage (and the 1920s/early 30s) and the WW II high velocity version. High being relative and they dropped the shell weight from 900g to 760g to help get the extra 120ms of velocity.
Missing the point here.For an automatic AA gun in a ground mount (or ship) weight is not usually an issue, either for the gun or the ammo. Design should focus on rate of fire, feed and the highest practical velocity with a worthwhile shell. HE content is not proportional to shell weight. You need the same rear end and front end (fuse) on the short light shells so all the reduction has to come out of the parallel section of the shell body and the filler.
It will not be excellent; moreover, I am not sure that it will be suitable for use in the ground forces due to its higher sensitivity to dust contamination, but for the navy, it is likely to be quite acceptable or even better than the 72-K. Moreover, anti-aircraft systems based on the VYa were produced in small series - the 2-U-23 and 4-U-23 were installed on motor boats.Some Soviet stuff.
The VYa-23 would've been an excellent AA gun (similar to the ZU-23 of the Cold war vintage)
In 1938-1940, the Soviets had a much more interesting option in the form of the 45 mm 49-K. With a rate of fire close to that of 37 mm guns, the 45 mm shell had much greater power.and same goes for the N-37.
Aviation guns are generally unsuitable for use as anti-aircraft weapons due to their high sensitivity to dust.Both guns fired the heavy shells at great MV and at excellent RoF. For the ground use, they will probably need a heavier barrel.
The ShVAK originally had a caliber of 12.7 mm - the difference from 14.5 mm is minimal. In this caliber, the Berezin's machine gun was superior. And for the ground forces, the Soviets had the DShK—a perfectly decent weapon.For the places these guns will not fit: the 20mm Shvak necked-down to 14.5mm - it will be a bit slower than the future KPV, probably closer to 950 than to 900 m/s? Both HE and AP ammo will do well here. Or course, the full-blown 14.5mm would've been even better, if the barrel wear can be kept in check with 1000+ m/s and the metallurgy of the Soviet Union in ww2. Either of these will still be one hefty gun, requiring a proper tripod, or a turret.
The problem with the 2pdr pom pom is that it used a short cartridge with little taper or bottleneck and the gun body (receiver) was sized to suit.It is going towards the 2pdr pom pom being necked down to 37mm, firing a lighter shell in a barrel that Japanese are making in, for them, good numbers, so they MV is up to snuff, and so is the availability of the reasonably powerful gun.
It is okay if you disagree.
The need for a compact gun is much less for ground/naval AA work than for aircraft work.Missing the point here.
Idea is to provide the people on the ground an AA gun that is much more powerful than a 7.5-8 mm LMG, that can fit on the places where the usual high-power 20mm + a worthwhile ammo count cannot fit, all while being early enough. Not being a HMG and firing a shell that can self-destruct means there is a much smaller chance that the fired bullets will kill it's own people on the ground.
If you don't like the 20mm version, pick the 15mm one.
The need for a compact gun is much less for ground/naval AA work than for aircraft work.
A big 20mm will fit in the same field
The small 20mm will not be man portable and the worthwhile ammo is going to need a cart to haul it around.
A small 20mm will handily out-range a LMG (unless the small 20mm is firing the heavy, 120-140g shells, that we don't want to happen here), and the effect on the target will be much greater. If a trailer or a cart is worthwhile for two LMGs, it is even more worthwhile for the small 20mm. Use Kubelwagen or a similar vehicle, even a mule will do just fine - not every Army was American or British.Granted the 7.9mm gun is not very effective. which is why they tried to use twins.
But now you are into at least a small trailer or small motor vehicle the difference between a short Oerlikon and a long Oerlikon to the small truck in terms of weight or size is going to be minimal.
Americans insisted on the HMGs on the tanks, OTOH. Supposedly Rudel was downed more than once with these.British gave up on using mgs for AA from tanks. They just closed the hatches and opened up the hatches when the German aircraft went away. Maybe the Germans killed one or two vehicles out of the unit. Playing with Bren guns against aircraft lead to a lot of dead or wounded commanders and/or loaders from bullets/shell fragments while trying to man the guns.
This may be under gunned for it's weight/cost. The need for smaller AA guns to fit small tanks or small trucks is a niche market. The army wants lager more powerful guns so that the same number of units (guns or gun batteries) can cover a wider area.
The Americans loved their .50 cal guns but I am not sure how many Enemy aircraft were shot down by them despite the tens (hundreds) of thousands of rounds fired.
Even the German 7.9mm was going to need 5-7 men for a "crew" if there is no transport, either motor or hooved. The US .50 was probably closer to 9-12 men although that is just a guess as the US never moved it that way. You need at least 2 men to carry the .50 itself. You need 3-4 men to carry the mount and you need ??? men to carry the ammo, You also need one NCO to superviseA big 20mm will not be useful with just two people and a mule available to lug it around - having a fully motorized and manned army was an exception in ww2, not a rule. The small 20mm will be as portable as the .50 BMG.
A lot depends on the desired range and traverse. The German 7.9mm had very close to the same time of flight to 600 meters as the German 13mm MG 131 and both were about 0.2 seconds quicker than the MGF-MM using mine shells. Using shorter/lighter shells that loose velocity quicker may not get you much unless the range is really short.A small 20mm will handily out-range a LMG (unless the small 20mm is firing the heavy, 120-140g shells, that we don't want to happen here), and the effect on the target will be much greater. If a trailer or a cart is worthwhile for two LMGs, it is even more worthwhile for the small 20mm. Use Kubelwagen or a similar vehicle, even a mule will do just fine - not every Army was American or British.
A big problem with tank mounted machine guns is the rather limited amount of elevation and traverse the gun actually has as opposed to the physical limits of the mount.Americans insisted on the HMGs on the tanks, OTOH. Supposedly Rudel was downed more than once with these.
Seems like we agree that LMGs as AA weapons on the tanks are not that a good idea.
A lot of the problem is not the gun or ammo itself, it is just being able to hit the aircraft (or even put tracers close) given primitive sighting systems and poor elevation and traverse arrangements. It is one thing to heave around a 10-15kg gun and ammo supply, when you are dealing with even a small 20mm you are dealing with 40kg plus (drum and ammo on top of the weapon). You have to be able to use legs and the whole body.We are in misunderstanding here. I'm not trying to sell the small 20mm as being as good as the big 20mm, but to offer an alternative to a HMG or a LMG pressed into the AA role.
Yes and the US went to the M45 quad mountAmericans seem to have been using the HMGs a lot as the ground support weapon, from their tanks or otherwise.
IMO, insisting on the HE shell for the HMGs is kinda throwing the money - the API shots will work, and in any case you need to land many hits on an aircraft (baring the (un)lucky shot that takes out a pilot) to bring it down.The US .50 did not use HE ammo and it's incendiary was on weak side but it did have the shortest time of flight to 600-1000 meters aside from the Soviet 12.7 and the German 15mm so aiming was less of problem (not actually solved)
Really? What about the AM-23?As-is, only the GSh-23 went into the service during the Cold war, being a very light gun and with the high RoF.
Radar proximity fuses. That's where Germany needed to focus rather than on V1/V2 rockets, jet interceptors, etc. If Germany had possessed radar proximity fuses in quantity early or mid-war, the strategic bomber campaign would have been significantly more costly for the 8 AAF and RAF Bomber Command.Similar to the other threads deling with guns & whatnot - what types of anti-aircraft alternatives would've represent a boon in the countries opting of doing so? Under the 'alternatives', it is not just the guns, but also the projectiles, rockets & their launchers, and what to favor - weight of fire or perhaps the range, for the same/similar weight & price of a device?
Depending on which article you read or who's list the Proximity fuse was one of the 3 biggest projects of the war. Nobody puts it ahead of the atomic bomb but it sometimes ties the B-29 project.Radar proximity fuses. That's where Germany needed to focus rather than on V1/V2 rockets, jet interceptors, etc. If Germany had possessed radar proximity fuses in quantity early or mid-war, the strategic bomber campaign would have been significantly more costly for the 8 AAF and RAF Bomber Command.
Depending on which article you read or who's list the Proximity fuse was one of the 3 biggest projects of the war. Nobody puts it ahead of the atomic bomb but it sometimes ties the B-29 project.
It was not the basic Idea. It was the ability to turn the basic idea into working hardware. One goal post was that once they got a 50% success rate (fuses actually functioned) on the test range they tooled up for production while they worked to improve things.