any other info on the Ta 153?

[Snautzer01]

Besides if its legal or not, one does not go against the wishes of a valued member here. That is plain bad sport.
So be a pal and just dont. Thank you.

 

[pbehn]

My whole point is this: if someone posts a 1-2 page excerpt from a factual book (of say 200+ pages) for non-profit, educational use which furthers public interest, it is highly likely that it falls entirely under Fair Use, and an American Court would side with the defendant and not the copyright claimant.

And if 100 people do that then you have the whole book, or one person doing it 100 times. I can do sketches, how fast and how big do you want these Balkenkreuz?

 

[Deleted member 68059]

First of all, I would hope you would notify a transgressing member before you take any sort of legal action. Second, what do you consider a "section"? Would you sue someone for posting 2-3 sentences? In 30 years, would you really try to sue someone for posting a page of your book? I understand that you have very recently released your book and spent many thousands of dollars and hours and so it's a raw subject for you, but please do try to think of the underlying goal and motivations of it all..

The gall to talk about ripping off peoples work and to then come back and tell ME to re-exhamine MY motivations.

You were on here talking about going and getting specific photos from a book for someone, so dont play coy pretenting you have ANY intentions
of "educational usage", your actions would in court, provably have by course of action stopped at least one person from buying a pubished
and copyrighted work. Under US law, you`d be stuffed; and if someone on here who doesnt have my book, asks someone to go and
scan an image/page for them, and they do, its lawyers time. CLEAR?

The solution is IMMENSELY SIMPLE, without exception, you ASK THE AUTHOR FIRST, and you then do WHATEVER it is
they say, and thats IT. Adhering to that rule, prevents ANY possible legal issues, and keeps everyone happy. Authors
dont mind being asked anything, they DONT like finding out afterwards.

Thats pissed me off so much I`m off for a glass of wine, signing out.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

To help you avoid getting prosecuted:

What Is Fair Use? Fair Dealing Copyright Explained.

"If the creator or owner has lost potential revenue through the re-use of their work, it is not likely to be fair."

You have asked someone to scan in images, obviously so you dont have to buy the book.

If the book were out of print, it would be different as obviously the author cannot lose revenue by doing so. However even then
"fair use" is entirely discretionary, has no absolute definitions and its really up to what mood the publisher is in to decide
if you get into trouble.

"No part of this book may be reproduced in any form, or by any means without prior permission in writing from the publisher"

If someone did the same thing here with my book - I will absolutely use legal means to have the images removed.

I hope that clears it up.

Its funny, I used to think people whining about copyright were miserable greedy old windbags, then I spent 5 years writing one
for a profit of about -£25,000 and amazingly now I understand what they were on about.

I think this reading is wrong. Copyright law, at least here in America, allows for the reproduction of small excerpts for the purposes of criticism and discussion. Reproducing performance statistics published in a book would seem to fall under that rubric, especially considering that the writer doesn't own those statistics but is, obviously, reproducing them himself for the purpose of critique and discussion. The owner's manual for your vehicle is a copyrighted text. Citing it when quoting it for the sake of discussion -- or, indeed, scanning a particular page to confirm one's point -- is fair use. The information doesn't carry the copyright, the work does.

As a copyrighted songwriter, I'm sympathetic to copyright defense. But the law itself allows for usage within limits. If someone wants to criticize a song of mine, and posts a verse in order to make his point, that is fair use, not infringement.

 

[SpicyJuan11]

And if 100 people do that then you have the whole book, or one person doing it 100 times.

This is not a real concern for a variety of reasons:
1) Have you actually seen this? I never have, and probably never will for the reasons below
2) No one is going to go through the trouble of doing this, if they were to post a whole book, they would simply post a whole pdf
3) If someone were to do this, it would most likely be a direct copyright violation as it would work outside the "10% rule". The fact that it was posted it segments probably wouldn't matter at all.

 

[SpicyJuan11]

The gall to talk about ripping off peoples work and to then come back and tell ME to re-exhamine MY motivations.

I find your wrongful generalizations of "ripping off" offensive and factually wrong. I have been nothing but respectful and conciliatory to you, I would prefer you reciprocate.

You were on here talking about going and getting specific photos from a book for someone, so dont play coy pretenting you have ANY intentions
of "educational usage", your actions would in court, provably have by course of action stopped at least one person from buying a published
and copyrighted work. Under US law, you`d be stuffed;

Where did I say that I wanted excerpts for someone other than myself? That is a wrongful inference on your part. I wanted information for my own personal research purposes. I did not do specifically ask for this in my earlier request, but believe me when I say that I would MUCH prefer people to not only post an excerpt, but rather to provide information and analyze and discuss it.

Under US law, your attorney would be raking in your money, but you would be getting none of mine.

If someone on here who doesnt have my book, asks someone to go and
scan an image/page for them, and they do, its lawyers time. CLEAR?

Good luck with that!

I would personally never post any excerpt from your book without your permission because you have expressed your wish multiple times in this thread that people not do so. However, your wish is not backed up legally, so I entirely support other people's right to do so if they wish.

The solution is IMMENSELY SIMPLE, without exception, you ASK THE AUTHOR FIRST, and you then do WHATEVER it is
they say, and thats IT. Adhering to that rule, prevents ANY possible legal issues, and keeps everyone happy. Authors
dont mind being asked anything, they DONT like finding out afterwards.

This is not practical in every case for a variety of reasons which are obvious.

Thats pissed me off so much I`m off for a glass of wine, signing out.

I have no idea why you're getting so emotional when neither you nor your book was ever in question. I have never said or done anything to antagonize you, but you appear to be blatantly hostile to me for no reason.

 

[GrauGeist]

How about this discussion goes to another thread?

Massive hijack from the OP - Ta153 info, remember?

 

[Deleted member 68059]

you appear to be blatantly hostile to me for no reason.

An author getting trolled for protesting this, unbelievable. Your behaviour is utterly despicable, and you do not belong on
an aviation forum. You advocate scanning copyrighted work with the direct intention of providing copies of specific
areas of a book, thus removing the need for someone to buy that work. Its criminal, and you are dance about and
pretend you`re talking about quoting for review purposes and other stuff, but your intentions are clearly to
encourage ripping off whatever content you please to avoid having to buy copyrighted works.

Marcel / Micdrow / other admin, can you please remove my account from this forum, I cant see an option to do it in the "my account" option.
I`m not having anything to do with a forum where posts like the one screenshotted-above (directly requesting scans from in-print copyrighted books) are unchallenged by admin.

 

[Marcel]

Sorry, hadn't seen this before. Copyright is not something we should discuss. There are many rules about that in the real world and here as well and allowing scans to be made from those books without permission of the author is not one of them here. We've had plenty of problems because of this before. Therefore, if you want to have drawings from a book, you'll just have to buy the book or ask the author.
BTW, where we are registered is irrelevant, we are an international forum and have to comply to international standards.

2nd note:
we moderators just cannot read everything. A couple of thousand posts are made every day. We rely also on members to point out misbehaviour. So please notify us if you think something is wrong. Use PM or the Report link here. Should not be too difficult!

 

[Micdrow]

Agree, I just saw this as well as we can not be every where.

 

[Marcel]

Locked for obvious reason

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

To help you avoid getting prosecuted:

What Is Fair Use? Fair Dealing Copyright Explained.

"If the creator or owner has lost potential revenue through the re-use of their work, it is not likely to be fair."

You have asked someone to scan in images, obviously so you dont have to buy the book.

If the book were out of print, it would be different as obviously the author cannot lose revenue by doing so. However even then
"fair use" is entirely discretionary, has no absolute definitions and its really up to what mood the publisher is in to decide
if you get into trouble.

"No part of this book may be reproduced in any form, or by any means without prior permission in writing from the publisher"

If someone did the same thing here with my book - I will absolutely use legal means to have the images removed.

I hope that clears it up.

Its funny, I used to think people whining about copyright were miserable greedy old windbags, then I spent 5 years writing one
for a profit of about -£25,000 and amazingly now I understand what they were on about.

It also can bring legal problems to this forum as well. Problems we don't want to deal with.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

And my apologies for not seeing this sooner. As Marcel pointed out, we cannot be everywhere at all times.

Having said that, Marcel covered it nicely.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Hi, just saw you replied.

There's a big difference between posting a page or two vs entire chapters. This also leaves out the counterargument that posting a page could actually increase sales since people have a small sample and idea of what the work is, and would have more motivation to buy it. Keep in mind as the copyright claimant it is up to you to prove that sales were harmed. This is no easy task because saying that a single person did not buy a book because of the excerpt is not necessarily enough. Courts weigh the extent to which the damage was "widespread":

"If the new work competes in a different market or the effect on the original work in the same market is negligible, courts generally find this factor in favor of the alleged infringer."
Captain Evan R. Seamone, The Limits of Fair Use in Military Scholarship: When, How, and from Whom to Request Permission to Use Copyrighted Works, Army Law., January 2010, at 16

"The fourth factor is "the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work." 17 U.S.C. § 107(4). The court looks to not only the market harm caused by the particular infringement, but also to whether, if the challenged use becomes widespread, it will adversely affect the potential market for the copyrighted work. Harper, 471 U.S. at 568, 105 S.Ct. 2218. This analysis requires a balancing of "the benefit the public will derive if the use is permitted and the personal gain the copyright owner will receive if the use is denied." MCA, Inc. v. Wilson, 677 F.2d 180, 183 (2d Cir.1981)."
Bill Graham Archives v. Dorling Kindersley Ltd., 448 F.3d 605 (2d Cir. 2006)


Because the whole point of this forum is educational; to share information with each other on extremely niche and hard to find topics. Much information is out of print, hard to find, and extremely expensive. Not everyone can afford to shell out $50-100 for a tidbit of information they could otherwise get from someone posting a paragraph-long excerpt from a book. This is one of the main reasons why Fair Use exists. Posting entire chapters or the whole book would of course not be legal and is not what I'm arguing for.

I am not "TRYING" to push the bounds of any rules, I am merely exercising the rights which Fair Use provides me.


First of all, I would hope you would notify a transgressing member before you take any sort of legal action. Second, what do you consider a "section"? Would you sue someone for posting 2-3 sentences? In 30 years, would you really try to sue someone for posting a page of your book? I understand that you have very recently released your book and spent many thousands of dollars and hours and so it's a raw subject for you, but please do try to think of the underlying goal and motivations of it all.


You conveniently left out all the rest of the categories which DO support what I'm saying.
"Fair use is a legal doctrine that promotes freedom of expression by permitting the unlicensed use of copyright-protected works in certain circumstances. Section 107 of the Copyright Act provides the statutory framework for determining whether something is a fair use and identifies certain types of uses—such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching, scholarship, and research—as examples of activities that may qualify as fair use".

My whole point is this: if someone posts a 1-2 page excerpt from a factual book (of say 200+ pages) for non-profit, educational use which furthers public interest, it is highly likely that it falls entirely under Fair Use, and an American Court would side with the defendant and not the copyright claimant.

We don't want to deal with any legal issues at all, and therefore do not dabble in any grey areas. Don't post digital versions of a book. Quoting a paragraph out of book when properly sourced and referenced is one thing. Posting entire pages and sections is another. Our forum does not allow it.

Ask for permission from an author, and when in doubt as a moderator or admin if something is allowed.