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As 'completed' the USN and UK ships were only slightly above the agreed on limit of 35,000 tons, which represents to me an honest effort to enforce the spirit of the treaty. Wartime weight additions are irrelevent as at that point as the nations were at WAR, the Escalator Clause was in effect and the US and UK were fast becoming allies. In contrast the Germans (and the Italians) deliberately violated the Treaty and designed warships with a standard displacement far in excess of the 35k limit which balooned further on completion. To claim that "oh everybody cheated so its ok" is a straw man. Its akin to saying "No harm...no foul!"
Per Friedman, the logic of the A/N system was that at "Very long ranges" the principle attack device would be the AP shell which could hit anywhere on a ship. HE would be useless against heavy armor (deck or belt) so only the heaviest armor was worth using. RN practice at the time, as mentioned thought HE would be extremely effective, based on part on their observations of Tsunshima and used considerable levels of medium armor as a result. This belief was not supported by the results of Jutland same as they were for the Germans. Ranges at Jutland and in other small skirmishes also confirmed the USN forward view that battle ranges were or soon would greatly expand.
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The USN fielded battleships as early as 1914 with deck armor all but completely proof against any forseeable opponent. While no deck armor was penetrated at Jutland it was a very near thing on more than one occasion. Post WWI saw the victorious RN saddled with a large battlefleet that was not only worn out but now largely vulnerable.
No. Here You mix up the results from two different shells. Round No. 9 hit the Barbette of turret X and round No. 14 hitting the 13.78in turret face of "B".The shells among other things directly penetrated the frontal glasis of one of Baden's turret's...a clean penetration.(13 3/4 inch) True it burst while 2/3rd through the armor but the nose ended up inside the turret and considerable damage was done to the roller path as a result.
No. Refferring to shell No. 9. Instead of penetration through, it burst in holing while 2/3 through the plate with parts of the projectile found inside and outside. Lesss than 1/3 of the projectile made it through (only it´s nose and shoulder, body pieces and base pieces were not found inside the barbette). Considerable damage was done to the roller path. Some damage was caused to machinery in the pocket between girders where the nose of the shell was found.Another cleanly penetrated the 13 3/4 barbette armor of X Turret.
Correct. Hit No. 15 failed to penetrate but burst in contact with the 13.78in armoured conning tower. GREENBOY APC has been unable to perforate (making a hole through) a near calibre thick plate (0.9187 cal. thick) at high obliquity.The 14inch conning tower did resist a hit at a 30 degree angle.
IIRC, only 3 UK shells penetrated heavy armor at Jutland. Had they used Greenboys, they might very well have disabled and/or sunk more German captial ships.
Hardly "slightly above". They cheated..
wrt to Campbell LÜUTZOW´s Ttorpedohit, don´t shift around the responsilities.
Your accusation of "conspiracies" is not only a factual mistake but the most unhonest way to avoid dealing the problem in indirectly accusing me to prefer strange theories.
The fact remains that the TT hit appears in both, german and british primary and contemporary sources. That You don´t read them, may have to do with Your neglect of them in favour of secondary sources. .
Unconvincing. As I stated above, Jutland experiences and small skirmishes are experiences not aviable to the USN while it was developing the AoN scheme. Friedman´s logic that the principle attack device would be AP at very long range is not convincing either. Even at lose range, HE will be useless against heavy (and even medium) armour. As a matter of fact, HE is useless against ANY measure of armour protection larger than splinter plating, regardless of range.
Why You do think that the GF battleships were vulnarable 1919 to 1929? Against whom? Against the HSF, sitting around in Scapa Flow? Against the USN, which still hadn´t developed a capability for effective long range firing, let alone think of endangering the decks of the GF ships owing to low main gun elevation and defective fuses?
The vulnarability of the GF and other old ships is not a function deriving from ww1 or it´s outcome but subsequent step by step eveolution and improvements starting not before another decade passed after the end of ww1.
I don´t question that the AoN armoured US standarts ended up beeing very valuable units in the mid 30´s owing to their schemes. But I don´t buy Friedman´s thesis that this was all pre planned. I rather think this happened accidently.
Wrt to the BADEN trials conducted 1921. I can read between the lines. The material as a convolution of primary sources is aviable online, so everyone can draw his own conclusions from them.
It has been cited for evidence for superior shell technology of the GREENBOY projectiles with both, armour piercing and fusing as well as obliquity behavior greatly superior to anything else. Brown is a good example for a basic failure in understanding the problems exposed by the trials in english secondary sources (even recent articles in Warship International dealing with them).
No. Here You mix up the results from two different shells. Round No. 9 hit the Barbette of turret X and round No. 14 hitting the 13.78in turret face of "B".
Under the comparisons for impact as such outlined above, not a single UK (...or german for that matter...) shell penetrated heavy armour at Jutland (280mm or more, matching about 0.92 cal. thickness plates for the british 12in gun, thus beeing "near calibre thick" or heavy plates). GREENBOY shells wouldn´t have changed that to a large degree.
Its interesting stuff that is going on here. Can I ask if any copies of the Baden Trials anywhere on the Web?
Thanks again to all those participating
Post WWI, the USN passed the RN in fire control due to technological developments. Coupled with the lessons learned by the 6th BS attached the RN, USN battleships were more than capable of delivering ordinance at Jutland ranges or higher. Post WWI, the victorious naval powers continued to exist and evolve with each other victorious navy as a potential enemy as well as ally. Are you suggesting that with the end of WWI there was no need for navies to exist at all?
Apparently the shell burst when it was two-thirds of its way through the armour and the nose of the shell as far as the shoulder was found inside barbette 23 ft. from outer edge of entry hole.
3 x 15in APC rounds were fired through the 7in battery armor, at least one of which hit and nearly penetrated the 7 3/8 barbette beyond. CPC shells were fired against the decks and caused very severe blast damage. It seems to have been concluded that the new generation of shells would penetrate thick armor and the new fuses would explode them about 40 feet beyond the point of impact. The filling, Shellite in the APC, Trotyl in CPC would explode violently causing severe damage
Addendum:
I must add that my term "disappointing" with regards to the result is not meant to be a recapture of the contemporary views on the matter. I use it on my own, after reading so much of this projectile and it´s super-abilities (even Nathan Okun stated informally that GREENBOY APC have the ability to defeat near calibre thick armour and burst reliably behind at high obliquity according to those trials) that I found the results as reported in ADM 186/251 disappointing. The contemporary view was that the fuses were working with disappointing reliability but that the projectile had progressed far enough not to burst on impact as was the case earlier (caused by a wrong british specification what the projectiles had to fullfill, not because Britain was unable to produce better shells).
As 'completed' the USN and UK ships were only slightly above the agreed on limit of 35,000 tons, which represents to me an honest effort to enforce the spirit of the treaty.
Wartime weight additions are irrelevent as at that point as the nations were at WAR, the Escalator Clause was in effect and the US and UK were fast becoming allies. In contrast the Germans (and the Italians) deliberately violated the Treaty and designed warships with a standard displacement far in excess of the 35k limit which balooned further on completion.
This needs some correction from the legal POV.
Germany was a non-signatory state for the Washington Treaty. Neither she was signatory of the Second London Naval Treaty which was signed on 25 March 1936 - and neither were Japan or Italy. Therefore the limitations did not apply to her.
Only a very mild inclination was laid down about 'favouring' such naval limitation systems in the 1935 Anglo-German Naval agreement (whearas other articles were clear about 'strictly adhering to' to 35:100 ratio with the British in total naval tonnage), without giving any exact definition of tonnage or armament allowed for each class of vessel.
Thirdly Japan was withdrawing from the Washington Naval Treaty in January 1936, permitting even signatory powers to invoke the escalator clause of the Treaty, permitting 45 000 ton standard displacement and 16" main guns. Italy also refused to sign it, and the beginning of a new naval arms race was obvious.
Bismarck was not laid down until 1 July 1936. Even if Germany would have been a signatory power to these Naval Treaties, the tonnage and caliber of the Bismarcks were well under the maximum. They were a counter to new French Richies, not British or American BBs anyway..
To claim that "oh everybody cheated so its ok" is a straw man.
And to claim that Germany deliberately violated a Treaty it didn't sign in the first place is a lie. Germany could, legally, build any size of Battleship, the reasons she didn't were a, technical limitations imposed by German ports b, political unwillingness to enter into a naval arms race with Britain, which was basically seen as unneccessary confrontation in a field where Germany had no vital interests. In short, German foreign policy was to make the British stay out, so Germany could concentrate on the actual enemy, the French.
As for "oh everybody cheated so its ok", it was exactly what was de facto the meaning of the escalator clause provided.. which for example the US was taking advantage of when they went - after much political debate - for 16" guns on the North Carolinas, but the British ultimately stuck with 14" guns.
And to claim that Germany deliberately violated a Treaty it didn't sign in the first place is a lie. Germany could, legally, build any size of Battleship
This needs some correction from the legal POV.
Germany was a non-signatory state for the Washington Treaty. Neither she was signatory of the Second London Naval Treaty which was signed on 25 March 1936 - and neither were Japan or Italy. Therefore the limitations did not apply to her.
Trials of German Major War Criminals: Volume 191. In the Agreement of 1937 both contracting Governments were bound to a mutual exchange of information, which was to take place annually, within the first four months of every calendar year, and was to contain details of the building programme. According to Document 23-C, the Navy violated this obligation in so far as it gave the figures for the displacement and the draught of the battleships Bismarck and Tirpitz, which were being built at the beginning of 1938, as too low, namely as 35,000 tons instead of 41,700 tons. That this violation of the treaty occurred is openly admitted by Raeder, but again it is not such a serious violation as the prosecution contends, that is, it is not a violation which shows proof of a criminal intention. This is clear from the detailed evidence I have presented and from the testimonies of witnesses which I need not repeat here; it will be sufficient if I refer to the absolutely convincing expert testimony of shipbuilding director Dr. Suechting, which I have submitted as Raeder Exhibit No. 15. According
the definition of displacement was not specified in the Versailles Treaty. the fist PBB, at least way designed accordingly (and in agreement with both, france and britain) and does not represent a treaty violation. before B was completed, the Treaty was already canceled.