Ark Royal vs Bismark

[Nikademus]

Nikademus ive never played a war game but Ive seen them on television, they should build absolute cockups into the rules It seems to me the bigger the ship or fleet the easier it was to be missed or wrongly identified/classified. Langsdorf used to rely on it when approaching merchantmen as I remember, his ability to sink ships without killing anyone or them sending a warning must count as a plus on his tactical nous.

"cockups" are built into the Storm Eagle Studios games "Jutland" and "Distant guns" (the later simulates the naval aspect of the Russo Japanese War). In addition to damages impairing one's ability to control, increasing use of micromanagement controls on a per ship level can lead to formations getting disrupted and impairing command and control. Getting out of visual sight of a division leader can lead to loss of control (for the player) Basically more is less which is how it should be for the C/O of a squad/fleet etc.

Older wargames like Warship and Battlecruiser from SSI incorprated hardware cockups from damage and weak armor/fluke hits. Great fun.

 

[Nikademus]

Actually, when I started thinking about a stern chase between AGS and the Brit cruisers, I was reminded of the Komandorskis since I was very familiar with because of my uncle's involvement. A cruiser size ship traveling at 25-28 knots, end on, at 16000-20000 yards and chasing salvoes must be a difficult target. In a book I read, written by a crewman on the DD, Dale, at the Kormandorski, the writer was very critical of McMorris and the Richmond, because he said the Richmond stayed well in front of SLC, out of range of the enemy gunfire. I don't suppose the Richmond would have accomplished much though by staying back because her guns most of the battle did not have enough elevation to have the range to be effective.

A stern chase with AGS would have probably been a long drawn out affair.

Being able to talk to a reletive who was there must have been extremely cool. Closest i've gotten is my GF's paternal Grandmother, whose' husband was a career RN man. She (the GF) constantly reminds me of how much i would have loved talking him up about his service days. Sadly, he passed before she and I became an item. I have talked extensively to her grandmother about her experiences as a volunteer nurse during the Blitz and her time in Malta during the war.

What job did your uncle have onboard the SLC?

 

[renrich]

Nik, I had the privilege to have six uncles who served in WW2. Two had joined the Navy in the thirties after high school and by the time of PH were both serving on CAs, Salt Lake City and Chicago. As you may know, SLC was escorting Enterprise and Chicago was escorting Lexington both not far from PH on Dec. 7. Both uncles were Chief Gunner's Mates, which is the highest enlisted man's rating. It is generally known that the Chiefs run the Navy. The uncle on the SLC was responsible for the secondary armament of the ship, the 5 inch-38s, the 1.1s and later 20 mms and 40mms. The one on the Chicago had the same job.

Among other missions the SLC was on the Doolittle Raid with Enterprise, Cape Esperance and Komondorski. His guns may have shot down two Japanese bombers during a raid on the Marshall Islands early in 1942 and were heavily involved during the night short range battle of Cape Esperance. The uncle on Chicago was in the Coral Sea Battle and was in Chicago at Savo Island, where the Chicago was the only Allied cruiser to survive although heavily damaged including being torpedoed. I had many conversations with them when they were alive.

 

[fastmongrel]

Why did Langsdorff think he was engaging a light cruiser and 2 destroyers. I wouldnt have thought there would be destroyers chasing him, werent RN destroyers a bit short on endurance for that job. Was there a destroyer flotilla based anywhere near the Plate.

 

[Nikademus]

I believe he thought that there might be an escorted convoy in the near vacinity.

 

[Juha]

IMHO Fastmongrel asked a good question. I doubt that there were RN DDs anywhere near, nearest possible base would have been Falklands, Capetown or Ascension are very far away and even Falklands so distant from anything very important needing DD patrols that it was improbable DD base. Because RN had nothing better anywhere near it was OK for clearly longer ranged cruisers.

Juha

 

[tail end charlie]

"cockups" are built into the Storm Eagle Studios games "Jutland" and "Distant guns" (the later simulates the naval aspect of the Russo Japanese War). In addition to damages impairing one's ability to control, increasing use of micromanagement controls on a per ship level can lead to formations getting disrupted and impairing command and control. Getting out of visual sight of a division leader can lead to loss of control (for the player) Basically more is less which is how it should be for the C/O of a squad/fleet etc.

Older wargames like Warship and Battlecruiser from SSI incorprated hardware cockups from damage and weak armor/fluke hits. Great fun.

I mean real C*CK UPS like the charge of the light brigade or the swordfish sent to attack the Bismark attacking the Sheffield cruiser but due to another C*CK up the magnetic detonators dont explode. Or for another example can you build in to a war game something a captain knew absolutely nothing about like the Blucher being finally sunk by a 1901 battery of shore launched underwater torpedoes.

 

[Glider]

It is a good question. One of the reasons why the RN had so many small cruisers was to cover the long sealanes. Escorts were in very short supply and woulld have been concentrated in the N Atlantic and on routes to the Med.

Why he didn't launch the seaplanes when first spotted to confirm the tactical situation is one of those unknowns. One of the RN Cruisers launced the Fairy Fox for a similar mission and to help with the spotting of the guns so it was possible.

 

[RCAFson]

Why did Langsdorff think he was engaging a light cruiser and 2 destroyers. I wouldnt have thought there would be destroyers chasing him, werent RN destroyers a bit short on endurance for that job. Was there a destroyer flotilla based anywhere near the Plate.

IIRC, it was because he mis-identified Exeter as a light cruiser (given her silhouette he may have though she was an Arethusa-class and so by comparison the Ajax and Achilles would have seemed to be destroyers, especially as they were further away at the time of the sighting) and the other two as destroyers.
Arethusa:

Exeter:

 

[Juha]

BTW max range for 8" AP
Wichita 29,800 yards (27,250 m)
Baltimore 30,050 yards (27,480 m)
County/Cathedral classes 30,650 yards (28,030 m)

Juha

 

[renrich]

RCAFson, I believe your pictures are mislabeled with the top picture which is labeled Exeter being actually Arethusa and the bottom picture being Exeter. Very nice pictures though, and handsome ships. My original Janes 1942 has a nice photo of Exeter after refit for the frontispiece.

 

[RCAFson]

RCAFson, I believe your pictures are mislabeled with the top picture which is labeled Exeter being actually Arethusa and the bottom picture being Exeter. Very nice pictures though, and handsome ships. My original Janes 1942 has a nice photo of Exeter after refit for the frontispiece.

The bottom picture is Exeter, as I put the labels at the top.

Anyways, there is a strong similarity and as Exeter was was approaching close to bow on, it would have been difficult to see the funnel separation.

 

[tail end charlie]

RCAFson, I believe your pictures are mislabeled with the top picture which is labeled Exeter being actually Arethusa and the bottom picture being Exeter. Very nice pictures though, and handsome ships. My original Janes 1942 has a nice photo of Exeter after refit for the frontispiece.

Zounds renrich youve made the same mistake as Langsdorf but RCAFson only got it right because he posted the pics in the first place

 

[Juha]

Hello
before the British saw AGS it had already rightly identified Exeter but had thought that the 2 CLs were DDs, Germans had intelligence info that Exeter and 2 H-Class DDs were escorting a small convoy from Montevideo. And by checking from Roskill, I found out that at least on Sept 1 1939 RN South American Command had also 4 DDs under its command.

Juha

 

[renrich]

I don't see a label for Arethusa and if my post is read carefully I said that Exeter is the bottom picture. It would be easy to mistake one cruiser for another, though. I believe that Juha has cleared that up. Engaging A small CA with two DDs is a different proposition than a CA with two CLs.

 

[davparlr]

Among other missions the SLC was on the Doolittle Raid with Enterprise, Cape Esperance and Komondorski. His guns may have shot down two Japanese bombers during a raid on the Marshall Islands early in 1942 and were heavily involved during the night short range battle of Cape Esperance. The uncle on Chicago was in the Coral Sea Battle and was in Chicago at Savo Island, where the Chicago was the only Allied cruiser to survive although heavily damaged including being torpedoed. I had many conversations with them when they were alive.

Good that you got to talk to them. I missed opportunities to do so. I hope you recorded the conversations or wrote them down.

A lot of mistakes were made by commanders at Savo Island and many lives were paid. It was a stomach punch to the Allies after Midway. An inquiry was conducted but only one commander was to be reprimanded, Captain Bode of the Chicago, who shot and killed himself when he learned of it. Your uncle must have left the Chicago shortly as it was sank a few months later. The Navy recovered with a vengeance and the battle of Guadalcanal was won. Those were dark times when the fighting was vicious and the outcome was still thought to be in the balance. The Guadalcanal period is one of my favorite periods to read about, where Allied Navy, Marine and Army warriors fought with disadvantage and great courage and grit to bring to a halt the Japanese onslaught in the Pacific. After this period, the war in the Pacific was never in doubt, only the price in lives that needed to be paid.

 

[renrich]

Unfortunately, I have only my memory to rely on regarding my converstions with them. By the time I realised how valuable their remembrances would have been, they were out of pocket or had passed away. Some of our family get togethers right after the war were hilarious though, with those two sailors, who were known to take a drink, telling sea stories. My uncle Jack on the Chicago told about once an accident with a 1.1 where it would not quit firing and shot off a piece of the Chicago. After Chicago limped back to Australia, following Savo, the Aussies who heretofore had been very friendly ostracized the crew of Chicago because it was said that Chicago abandoned Canberra. Of course they needed to find a scape goat for Savo and Bode was it.

That particular uncle accepted a commission(?) as a warrant officer after Savo and was transferred out before Chicago was sunk at Rennel Island. He wound up in China involved with geurrilla warfare I think but he was very close mouthed about that phase of his career. He normally was about 6' 3" and about 210 pounds but came back from China weighing about 160 pounds.