B-25 weapons thread

Ad: This forum contains affiliate links to products on Amazon and eBay. More information in Terms and rules

This is a follow up of a post in the North American B-25 Mitchell - thread - see posts #599-601.
Earlier in this thread we've been discussing a not very common nose armament of a B-25 (in bomber configuration, not a strafer!) in the SWPA - check posts #482-488, consisting of one flexible 0.50 gun in the center and 2 flexible (hand held) 0.30 on both sides of the nose. This is not a standard armament and my explanation was that some early B-25C/D having the standard 0.30 nose armament in 3 positions were modified in the field and received more guns. Very interesting and rare but nothing unusual (as I thought firstly) - older airplanes have been modified, based on newer standards or variants.
Thanks to Snautzer a photo of a similarly modified B-25D surfaced today in the other B-25 thread - check post # 599. I'll re-post some of the details here to illustrate the whole idea better.
This is the nose of "Blonde Bomber", having a flexible 0.50 and 2 ball-socket mounts for 0.30 guns - please compare with the photo in post #486. The second socket is obscured by the framing but still recognizable on the other side.

I knew from a photo I already had, that this is a B-25 D from the 22-nd BG. in New Guinea (a group mostly using B-26 and later B-24 but nevertheless one of the USAAF bomber groups equipped with B-25 at some point).

One can see the demarcation line between the OD and NG having the smaller "scallops", typical for the D-model and not for the C. What we don't see here is the complete cowling.
Snautzer's photo does show it:

Wait a sec - it has individual "Clayton" S-stacks (exhaust flame dampeners)! Early "Mitchells" didn't have them, right?
Maybe this a/c had its engines changed - wouldn't be the first time. Or maybe the serial I have is wrong?
In fact we can see the serial number in this photo:

It's 41-30768 - at least the first 5 digits are recognizable and they put the a/c in the D-20 block. BTW I have the serial and the description of "Blonde Bomber" from a site about the 22-nd BG.
As already quoted in post # 482 and in other earlier posts, 0.30 caliber guns have been used in many field modifications, even on later B-25 models. In this particular case the ball and socket mounts of "Blonde Bomber" are not factory installed as on earlier models. They have been added to increase the firing power in the nose, obviously with guns they had at the time. This is the first time I see them on a newer B-25 block.
Note that this a/c has not any additional blister guns as seen on many SWPA modifications but I believe it has 2x0.30 in the observer windows (photographer station) and in the tail, as seen in some of the earlier posts.
I guess this thread becomes more and more complex, dealing with similar questions but in development. One must go back and forth (like in a real book) to find the answers to some of the many questions.
The complete truth is still out there!
Cheers!
 
Last edited:
The 22nd BG deployed with four squadrons and an HQ section in early 1942. By January, 1943 they had only enough combat worthy B-26s to equip one squadron. The entire unit was pulled out of combat to rest and refit. The remaining combat worthy B-26s were consolidated in the 19th BS. The other three squadrons were re-equipped with B-25s, re-entering combat in Sep 1943. In February 1944, the entire group re-equipped with B-24s.
 
Just to add to the above:
"During the B-25 period, flying 1809 sorties in four months, not a plane was lost through enemy action. At that time, the mission of the 22nd Bomb Group was close ground support of the Australian and American ground forces in New Guinea."

The crew of "Blonde Bomber" consisted of: Lt. Robert Laurie, pilot; Lt. Percy Donack, co-pilot, Lt. Melton Crawford, bombardier; Lt. Robert J. Finlay Jr., navigator; S/Sgt Hanna, gunner; Sgt. Santarelli, engineer; S/Sgt Erhardt, radio operator - these are 7 crewmen (see second photo above)! 3 NCOs indicate with a very big probability a tail gun and waist guns. I couldn't find which squadron did they belong to.
Cheers!
 
Last edited:
Revenge of the Red Raiders describes it as a B-25D-20, assigned in September, 1943 to the 408th BS. Flew at least 54 missions, starting on 10/14/1943. Transferred to 823rd BS, 38th BG, January, 1944.
There aren't many photos of B-25s in the book, but the few that show the tail, show the plexiglas tail cap in place.
 
Thank you for this info!
Yes they did keep the plexiglass cone but added the 0.30 trough a cut in it - check your earlier note about El Diablo and Paul's post # 487 with similar mods too.
I have another B-25 from the 22nd in flight and the quality of the photo is not good but one can see (probably) the same mod:

This is only a guess of course that all Mitchells were modified in the very same way.
As for the D-20 block: yes, the sources I quoted list "Blonde Bomber" as a B-25D-20. There is a something which might be the reason for my mistake. B-25D-15 and D-20 were manufactured in 3 batches:
Contract NA-87
41-30353 to 41-30532 (180)
41-30533 to 41-30847 (315)
Contract NA-100
42-87113 to 42-87137 (25)
Norman Avery in the "Magnificent Medium" gives both batches under NA-87as D-15, but in the same book he lists some of the changes "effective on B-25D-20 ser. No. 41-30533" or with other words D-20 were manufactured in 2 batches under 2 different contracts to a total of 340 planes.
Baugher gives the second batch under contract NA-87 as D-20 too.
I used Avery's list (Appendix Q in his book), but he might have just forgotten to add the correct block number.
I changed the block number in the other posts.
Thank you!
 
Last edited:
El Diablo was an early crew modification.
Wholesale unit modifications by the 3rd BG were implemented following the disasterous raids on Lea in May 1942. (Eight ships lost or written off in two missions.)
These modifications start showing up on 3rd BG B-25s in late July, 1942. This is the same time frame that the 22nd began upgunning their B-26s.
 
Nice view of a modified side gun for a B-25 Mitchell Source: The 12th Airforce or the Mediterranean document.

View attachment 697261
Paul, I have the original photo (or part of it) from an unknown source:

And below a similar scene, with 1 crewman more, but photographed from the other side:

Both a/c are a Sidi Ahmed Air Depot mod (small waist windows). AFAIK this are 340th BG. planes.
 
So looking through the book Harvest of the Grim Reapers I noticed this in the pictures of the early Grim Reapers aircraft. I found this on multiple aircraft now that they flew in the early years. Note the Yellow arrow points to a 30 caliber ball mount. Would be great if any one has a pictures of this mounting on the inside of the aircraft.





Again you can see the mount on Der Schpy as well



And below here you can see the 30 caliber machine gun barrel mounted below the nose.

 
The ball mounts are standard K-2 sockets for the AN-M2 .30's. They had to make a heck of a racket when flying with no gun. Think sticking a coke coke bottle out in the window of a car at 60 mph, the extrapolate from there. The K-2A solves the noise problem with a spring loaded flap and seal on the external cylinder.


BTW...anyone know of one in a parts stash, or collection that could be used to take measurements off of?
 
Maybe try the Sandbar Mitchell restoration. here Log into Facebook
 
And below here you can see the 30 caliber machine gun barrel mounted below the nose.

View attachment 699811
Paul, great photos!
Let's repeat again: these are (probably) the first modified B-25 at all! The original nose armament did not include a ball& socket mount on the right side of the nose. That's one and two: all 3 (in this case 4) sockets were designed for a single handheld 0.30 gun. Adding 2 or 3 more guns is a typical field mod from the 3rd BG.
Please note the narrow carburetor intakes (used on B-25C/D, no number blocks only) and the demarcation line between the OD and NG camouflage colours without the usual scallops, (same type demarcation line as on the earliest B-25, -A and -B and the very early -C models).
Cheers!
P.S. Here's a drawing of this early type armament (with 3 ball&socket mounts). Please note the serials: for B-25C they are from the blocks B-25C(no number) and partially B-25C-1; for B-25D they are from block B-25D(no number) only:
 
Last edited:
IMHO the ball&socket mounts with the flap were used on earlier B-25, B-25A and B-25B models only, and the standard K-2 sockets were used on B-25C/D. I've never seen a C/D with a flap. Do you have any photo with such mounts on later models?
This is a B-25:

This is a B-25A:

This is a B-25B:

This is a B-25C:

And this is a B-25D:

Note: some or all of the above photos have been posted in this thread already.
Cheers!
 
Last edited:

Not sure, I will have to look around and will let you know
 
Thanks! I see now which flap do you mean - the small one on the ball! Dully noted. That small flap is even shown on the drawing I posted above.
Don't you think the earlier sockets are from a different type? The ball is mounted completely on the inside of the glazing. (On the B-25B photo there is a cantilever/arm holding the socket I guess). What is the flange of the socket mounted at? Unfortunately I don't have any B-25/B-25A manual for comparison.
(Paul, do you have any?)
Cheers!
 
Unfortunently this is the only A/B manual I have and it does not show them in the nose.

 

Users who are viewing this thread