B-25 weapons thread

[cvairwerks]

Did a little digging and in the NAA Service School Lectures book for 15 May 1942, it describes having the K-2 mounts in the C model. In Addendum 1, it states that the B-25, and the B-25A have doors over the K-2's, while the figure shown for the section, includes the B model also. Addendum 2 states the C's are similar, but getting a new style ball mount. I found the drawing that shows the K-2A's breaking in on the C model, but didn't find the installation drawings themselves. Would take a bit of digging to go thru all the drawings, unless one could come up with the data from a C model or earlier IPB.

 

[CATCH 22]

Did a little digging and in the NAA Service School Lectures book for 15 May 1942, it describes having the K-2 mounts in the C model. In Addendum 1, it states that the B-25, and the B-25A have doors over the K-2's, while the figure shown for the section, includes the B model also. Addendum 2 states the C's are similar, but getting a new style ball mount. I found the drawing that shows the K-2A's breaking in on the C model, but didn't find the installation drawings themselves. Would take a bit of digging to go thru all the drawings, unless one could come up with the data from a C model or earlier IPB.

From a repair manual for B-25C/D I had the information that the ball&socket mount is type K-2 for the 0.30 handheld and K-4 for the flexible 0.50 guns. This is the reason to ask about the K-2A and thanks to you "I can see clearly now"!

If you find something more about the earlier mounts (even if they are K-2 but attached differently) will be "another case solved" in this thread.
Paul, thanks for looking in your manual!
But hey, gentlemen. Santa is almost here! He might bring us a gift!
Merry Christmas to all of you!
Cheers!

 

[cvairwerks]

From what I can decipher from the drawings I found, somewhere during the C model, the change was made to the K-2A's and the installations revised to remove the external cover doors. That would drop a number of parts from the installation, as well as remove a forging or two. With the original installation, the K-2's were mounted to a forged spider that supported the ball about 3" behind the plexiglas. There was a pair of frames then used to sandwich the plex and hold the door and it's operation mechanism. The elimination of the external doors greatly simplified the installation, as now, all that had to be done, was bore for the ball, and drill the holes for the retaining rings.

 

[Micdrow]

Well going through some old pictures I forgot I had taken these in 2018.

Hope you enjoy

 

[Wurger]

 

[Micdrow]

Thanks my friend, few more of same aircraft.

 

[Wurger]

Superb!

 

[CATCH 22]

Amazing details, Paul! I have never heard of this "Mitchell" before! It's from the J-15 block and one detail caught my attention:

In one of the modelling threads we already discussed (years ago) the bigger plate added in the nose of the a/c with 2 fixed guns on the right side (not all of them though). The flexible gun in this case was 4 " higher. This change is known to be done first on block J-20. If the one on the photo is not a completely new plate (looks very clean and some of the screws are modern ones IMHO) it's an interesting detail to think about.
But the second hole is of bigger interest. Could this be a gun camera mounting?
I haven't seen (so far) cameras mounted in this location. The standard gun camera position was in the cockpit (glazed nose airplanes). The H-models had the camera in the nose, above the 4 guns.

If this was a used a/c with field mods etc. one would say, they added something there. But that's a completely new frame. Whatever was there should be original, unless the whole plate is a new addition to the restoration.
Cheers!
P.S. Here is a photo of a brand new B-25J for the USSR:

The big plate is there but I can't figure out what's below the gun.

It could be the bombardier's windshield wiper mechanism for example. The drawing below shows the earlier small plate though. Detail A shows the motor and the actuator in the exact same area where the second hole in the later (bigger) plate is:

P.S. And yet another original photo of a Soviet B-25J-25 s/n 44-30004 with a big nose plate - I don't really see anything under the flexible nose gun.

 

[Micdrow]

Sorry for such a slow response but have been digging and so far I have found nothing on this either. Could be for a gun camera though so far I have nothing to confirm this nor have I found any Soviet bomber pictures with this setup as of now. The other option that I can think of was if it could be a light. Again I have never seen this on any Soviet Mitchells or otherwise as of yet that I can remember but I have only seen these on a few restored B-25's and not in any aircraft pictures of the war.

Example:

 

[Micdrow]

Now as you know I have been really looking into Pappy Gun's Mitchell configurations. I found something on Fold3 that really interested me.

Attached is the nose plate off a converted Mitchell and very common photo in books converted to strafer mode.

Now I found this on the fold3 sight this week.

Blowing it up and looking at the top pictures on the mounting brackets of the machine guns and looking at the picture below the for the machine gun on the right I believe this is one of the modified mounts either being built or maintenance being done. The one on the left is also the same configure but harder to make out as we see the open spaces in the bracket is part of the bomber tire in the back ground. Note also the mounting on the machine guns on the bracket compared to the bottom photo. The top machine gun sticks out farther than the bottom one. Same as the modified green dragon Mitchell at bottom of this message and the mounting of the Mitchell in the back ground. Also note the stinger mounted in the tail in the below picture.

Note standard Pappy Gunn Mitchell had top machine guns set farther out then bottom ones.

Thoughts

 

[Wurger]

 

[Greg Boeser]

Tontouta, New Caledonia was SOPAC, so 13th AF. Not 5th.
42nd BG, then.

 

[CATCH 22]

Tontouta, New Caledonia was SOPAC, so 13th AF. Not 5th.
42nd BG, then.

I believe Paul is using the description "Pappy Gunn's configurations" not only for the first 5th USAAF mods but in general. And yes, July 1943 is a bit late for the first strafers. I'm sure we have photos in this thread of the Eagle Farms depot with the really first modified B-25. Then the production of strafers went to Townsville (4th ADG) and consequently to New Caledonia.
On the second photo one can see the navigator's astrodome just over the engine and the bigger carburetor intakes - both came with slightly later production of B-25C/D (as those below from the 42nd BG. - I believe we can see the "stinger" in the tail cone of the first a/c):

Nevertheless these all are photos of "commerce destroyers" with all changes made, based upon a standardized modification process.
Paul, check "The Magnificent medium" page 106 - you might have forgotten there is a drawing of the strafer nose there - one can see the 2 "sloped" brackets very well.
Cheers!

 

[Greg Boeser]

Yes. The first B-25s assigned to the 69th BS (Sept '42) had to be sent to Australia for modification. They weren't used in combat until mid-'43.

 

[Micdrow]

I believe Paul is using the description "Pappy Gunn's configurations" not only for the first 5th USAAF mods but in general. And yes, July 1943 is a bit late for the first strafers. I'm sure we have photos in this thread of the Eagle Farms depot with the really first modified B-25. Then the production of strafers went to Townsville (4th ADG) and consequently to New Caledonia.
On the second photo one can see the navigator's astrodome just over the engine and the bigger carburetor intakes - both came with slightly later production of B-25C/D (as those below from the 42nd BG.) - I believe we can see the "stinger" in the tail cone of the first a/c.
View attachment 700382
Nevertheless these all are photos of "commerce destroyers" with all changes made, based upon a standardized modification process.
Paul, check "The Magnificent medium" page 106 - you might have forgotten there is a drawing of the strafer nose there - one can see the 2 "sloped" brackets very well.
Cheers!

Yep I have the drawing but to be honest I always like to compare pictures to pictures to see if there are any other modifications that I can find.

First time I can remember seeing the frames in real life.

 

[CATCH 22]

Yep I have the drawing but to be honest I always like to compare pictures to pictures to see if there are any other modifications that I can find.

First time I can remember seeing the frames in real life.

You are right - there are small differences between early and late mods, one sees them on photos only.
I had the photo you posted from before, but never thought these are the nose guns we see there.
Just adding a link to an article about Pappy Gunn's strafers with several other links - IMHO here's the best place to do it:

B-25 Strafer Field Modifications

 

[DBII]

Good thread everyone.

 

[Micdrow]

You are right - there are small differences between early and late mods one sees them on photos only.
I had the photo you posted from before, but never thought these are the nose guns we see there.
Just adding a link to an article about Pappy Gunn's strafers with several other links - IMHO that's the best place to do it:

B-25 Strafer Field Modifications

Yep Peter Dunn's site, very good site and been there a few times. Thought about contacting him and see if he new how many rounds the 20mm cannon carried as that is one question I still have not figured out. Otherwise not sure who to ask that question with. Just haven't had the time to do it yet.

 

[Micdrow]

Well still looking for your question on camera installations. Couple of pictures I found that you have talked a bit about. Top one for a B-25H. Bottom one is cockpit installation.

Last one kind of interesting and found on Fold3.

 

[SaparotRob]

Before this thread I didn't know bombers had gun cameras.