B-25 weapons thread

[CATCH 22]

Ehm, guys, I'm too a devoted opponent (enemy if you prefer) of the AI. But can we discuss its weaknesses in the specific thread - this one was about B-25 armament so far.
Mr. Admin, sir, Is it possible to remove the AI-related posts from here and collect them in the relevant thread?
Cheers guys!
No bad feelings, please, I love Mitchells more than "AI-thing" else!
Cheers!

 

[Micdrow]

Afternoon, I seen this on some photos I took after Airventer of this cone on top of the B-25 God and Country and have never seen it before. Seems strange. I sent a message off to the museum a couple of weeks ago but still have not gotten any reply. My guess is maybe a review mirror protected by the cone. Seems like an after addition. This one does not have a top gun turrent and instead has a clear globe so not sure even if it was a rear looking mirror. Any one have any idea's?

Thanks Paul

 

[Micdrow]

I have to many hobbies LOL, still collecting pictures from web and other resources. This one seems to be earlier B-25 model but I dont remember seeing one with what looks like a camera sticking out the side above the dropped turret. Thoughts? Looking at some the hole is the same on other aircraft but there but itdoesnt look like a camera there like this one.

This drawing shows it just like a window.

 

[Micdrow]

Last one I think Yves will find interesting. Looks like they removed the plexiglass and installed some armor for the waste gunners.

 

[CATCH 22]

Last one I think Yves will find interesting. Looks like they removed the plexiglass and installed some armor for the waste gunners.

View attachment 845592

Paul, thank you again! You are getting older, my friend!
Check post #740 and the following posts.

 

[CATCH 22]

I have to many hobbies LOL, still collecting pictures from web and other resources. This one seems to be earlier B-25 model but I dont remember seeing one with what looks like a camera sticking out the side above the dropped turret. Thoughts? Looking at some the hole is the same on other aircraft but there but itdoesnt look like a camera there like this one.

View attachment 845587

This drawing shows it just like a window.

View attachment 845601

If what we see is the lens, this should be a huge camera! Not impossible, but there is not much space there for a camera and a lower gunner. Hard to say. This round window (one each side) was in fact the lower gunner's window to check what's going on outside the plane. This could be a plane they used to make some aerial photos for a magazine or so (LIFE-style).
BTW 4 officers and 2 NCOs is a typical standard crew of an unmodified plane (pilot, co-pilot, bombardier, navigator, radio-gunner, engineer-gunner).

 

[Micdrow]

Paul, thank you again! You are getting older, my friend!
Check post #740 and the following posts.

Lol yep getting old. Can't remember what I posted and what I haven't though never expected this thread to get so big but glad it has as learned alot

 

[CATCH 22]

Lol yep getting old. Can't remember what I posted and what I haven't though never expected this thread to get so big but glad it has as learned alot

As people use to say: "We count our age by the growth of our children."
This thread is your "child" and has really grown up (Thanks God!).
I'm coming often here, just to "renew" things I've forgotten or to learn (still do!) something new.
Cheers!

 

[Micdrow]

Little info on the lower rear hatch gun for the B-25A. Kind of suprised it was not used on later models or I have not seen it yet.

 

[Micdrow]

Dont ever remember reading about this in mission reports but still interesting. Found in the B-25C&D Maintenance manual.

 

[CATCH 22]

Little info on the lower rear hatch gun for the B-25A. Kind of suprised it was not used on later models or I have not seen it yet.

View attachment 845947View attachment 845948View attachment 845949

Paul, I'm not even sure they used it on the B-25/B-25A models at all. It was one of those "between the wars" ideas with "let's try it"-taste. The gunner had to open that belly hatch, attach the gun to the OUTSIDE surface of the hatch and use it. Not speaking of aiming, moving and rotating in the back of the plane. On top of this, it was ONLY ONE 0.30-gun to be used in 4 positions.
I wouldn't rely on such defensive armament too much. The tail-stinger was much better for that matter and the only 0.50 gun in the plane (at that time).
I think I already posted the photo below but it's better to have it again with the above scheme. This is a mock-up of the belly hatch with the gun:

I'm scared only by looking at that "hole" in the belly of the airplane!

 

[Micdrow]

Paul, I'm not even sure they used it on the B-25/B-25A models at all. It was one of those "between the wars" ideas with "let's try it"-taste. The gunner had to open that belly hatch, attach the gun to the OUTSIDE surface of the hatch and use it. Not speaking of aiming, moving and rotating in the back of the plane. On top of this, it was ONLY ONE 0.30-gun to be used in 4 positions.
I wouldn't rely on such defensive armament too much. The tail-stinger was much better for that matter and the only 0.50 gun in the plane (at that time).
I think I already posted the photo below but it's better to have it again with the above scheme. This is a mock-up of the belly hatch with the gun:
View attachment 846018
I'm scared only by looking at that "hole" in the belly of the airplane!

Morning Yves,

So the info I pulled came straight out of the Service School Lectures Gun Install Revision Date 15 May 1942. I think this is the very first model talked about before turrets and maybe never put into practice though intersting it would be in a Service School Lecture book . If you notice in the last picture above it shows a 30 caliber machine gun in place of the top turret. From a stafer stand point I could see this as pointless for bottom gun. From a medium to high stand point I could see this practical for more downward fire power.

Now with that said we agree that the bottom turret was pretty much useless. But one Bomb Squadron still wanted more fire power instead of creating a hatch gun they did something different as seen below.

The 490th Bomb squadron removed the turret, leaving a 30-inch hole in the bottom of the aircraft. They placed an L shaped steel angle iron across the hole and rigged up a mounting for two 30 caliber machine guns. For additional protection, the ground crew cut holes in the two small observation windows on the sides of the fuselage, just behind the wing and inserted a ball socket to hold a 30-caliber machine gun in each window. Source: I think it was Eagles, Bulldogs & Tigers History of the 22nd bomb squadron in China-Burma or was it The Tenth Airforce in WWII by Edward M Young LOL.

 

[CATCH 22]

Morning Yves,

So the info I pulled came straight out of the Service School Lectures Gun Install Revision Date 15 May 1942. I think this is the very first model talked about before turrets and maybe never put into practice though intersting it would be in a Service School Lecture book . If you notice in the last picture above it shows a 30 caliber machine gun in place of the top turret. From a stafer stand point I could see this as pointless for bottom gun. From a medium to high stand point I could see this practical for more downward fire power....

Paul, I was more on the "funny side of the street" (to paraphrase a famous song), not saying, the defensive armament of the earliest "Mitchells" was not done seriously. They just didn't know what exactly would be the best solution.
As different theaters of war have shown that depending on the target/task, the armament could be ideal or useless. By the way this is the top gun in the B-25/25A:

There are two "fancy" sliding windows, opened manually and then the poor gunner must run around that pedestal, trying to shoot some "bozo" in the sky.
The waist positions are the same:

The gunner has to take that window down (it's not hinged, the holding mechanism is seen there) like a hatch cover, put his handheld gun in place and start shooting.
The details are very nice though. Especially the rear gunner - pure Art Deco for me! Gorgeous!

And what you say about the CBI B-25 getting a hatch gun, rather than a belly turret: Oh yes! The need of something more efficient could delete the original efforts for top-technology. They had the same trials in North Africa as well (different places - similar tactics). Check the belly and tail of this in-field modification in the 12th BG. (before the factory modified Mitchells started coming):

 

[Micdrow]

Paul, I was more on the "funny side of the street" (to paraphrase a famous song), not saying, the defensive armament of the earliest "Mitchells" was not done seriously. They just didn't know what exactly would be the best solution.
As different theaters of war have shown that depending on the target/task, the armament could be ideal or useless. By the way this is the top gun in the B-25/25A:
View attachment 846104
There are two "fancy" sliding windows, opened manually and then the poor gunner must run around that pedestal, trying to shoot some "bozo" in the sky.
The waste positions are the same:
View attachment 846105
The gunner has to take that window down (it's not hinged, the holding mechanism is seen there) like a hatch cover, put his handheld gun in place and start shooting.
The details are very nice though. Especially the rear gunner - pure Art Deco for me! Gorgeous!
View attachment 846106
And what you say about the CBI B-25 getting a hatch gun, rather than a belly turret: Oh yes! The need of something more efficient could delete the original efforts for top-technology. They had the same trials in North Africa as well (different places - similar tactics). Check the belly and tail of this in-field modification in the 12th BG. (before the factory modified Mitchells started coming):
View attachment 846107

Sorry was kind of in the zone yesterday looking for info. Yeah I always thought the tail was cool as far as astetics go of the A model but ad you said I would not want to be in there when the bullets fly.

Found this picture a while back, looks like a squadron hack that use to be a strafer. So far I have found no other info on it. Thought you might find it curious as well.

 

[Micdrow]

I always wondered if this pair of machine guns was for that L bracket,

 

[CATCH 22]

I always wondered if this pair of machine guns was for that L bracket,

View attachment 846148

Paul, where do you have this photo from? Isn't the guy on the left Jack Fox - the NAA-field service rep?

 

[GrauGeist]

I always wondered if this pair of machine guns was for that L bracket,

View attachment 846148

Hey Paul, is that a Browning M1919 .30 caliber MG on the left?

 

[Micdrow]

Paul, where do you have this photo from? Isn't the guy on the left Jack Fox - the NAA-field service rep?

Morning Yves,

I don't think its Jack Fox but then again maybe, below is a photo of Jack. Where I got the picture above I have no clue. Every so often when I burned out researching I keep a folder on both my desk top and lap top of B-25's that I find interesting or want to research later on. If I had to guess maybe Facebook. I have quite a few B-25 pages I monitor. I find alot of pictures there I have never seen due to family members looking for info on relatives that have passed away.

 

[Micdrow]

Hey Paul, is that a Browning M1919 .30 caliber MG on the left?

Looks like it to me looking at barrel pattern. Source: Browning M1919 Machine Gun

 

[CATCH 22]

Morning Yves,

I don't think its Jack Fox but then again maybe, below is a photo of Jack. Where I got the picture above I have no clue. Every so often when I burned out researching I keep a folder on both my desk top and lap top of B-25's that I find interesting or want to research later on. If I had to guess maybe Facebook. I have quite a few B-25 pages I monitor. I find alot of pictures there I have never seen due to family members looking for info on relatives that have passed away.

View attachment 846275

Same with me Paul. I download photos an rename them properly, forgetting the source.
I do believe this is a twin 0.30 mod for a B-25. Could be used in 2 places only: belly hatch or tail. Twins in the tail were not very common in the beginning. I support your guess, that this is a modification for a belly-hatch armament in place of the belly turret.
I have seen different photos of Jack Fox, he's a small guy and allways has that recognizable haircut (similar to what's in the photo you posted). I think I have seen that photo before, thus my question - I'll search deeper in my archives..............................and I know now I did a mistake.
The a/c in the background is "Tokyo Jo" - a very early B-25C/D (no block#) - note the small carburetor intakes and smooth cowlings. This a/c is from the 11-thBS. 341-st BG. in CBI (China). Photo below is dated 2. February 1943. Jack Fox was in Australia, not in China!

I believe we already posted some photos of CBI B-25 with belly hatch (no turret) and twin-guns. And your memory about the CBI-book is perfect!
Here another photos of those mods (source is on the photo):

Cheers!