B-25 weapons thread

[CATCH 22]

Yves, I dont remember where I found this picture but I know how interested you are in waist gun modifications. First time I had seen something like this one.

View attachment 802261

Paul, thank you!
I already have the same picture, but at least now it's posted here as well. These are Marines and the a/c is a modified PBJ-1D. It's basically a very similar mod to a B-25D2 with waist windows, tail gun, blister guns etc. Interestingly the Marines used the same type of moveable enclosure on the late PBJ-1J too (note below the non standard wind deflector):

I have a photo of the modified waist window on a PBJ-1J but without the enclosure:

The famous photos with a Japanese officer (2nd Lt. Minoru Wada) giving instructions to USMC bombers, show the exact same waist window with an additional frame with rounded corners:

For comparison below is a photo of a "standard modification" PBJ-1D (possibly from the Kansas/Fairfax mod centre but could be from elsewhere as well) with enclosed waist windows (fixed plexi) and as far as I can see no wind deflectors.

Cheers!

 

[MiTasol]

Yves.

What is that on the wing tip in the fourth photo - radar? camera?

 

[B25Nut]

It was the radar antenna, but it didn't function well in that location. Late in the war some PBJ-1Js moved it to the nose, which turned a great lookin aircraft into an ugly one.

 

[CATCH 22]

Yves.

What is that on the wing tip in the fourth photo - radar? camera?

View attachment 802309

As explained above.
The wiring of the wing antenna was too long and caused some interference. Nevertheless wing mounted radar antennae have been used until the end of the war, depending on the MB-squadron. AFAIK the only squadron to use the "hose nose" on a PBJ-1J was VMB 612 (as shown in the previous post).
The photos I have shown above are of PBJs from VMB 611. This unit never used the "hose nose" with the J-model - one can see it on the photos with the Japanese officer I posted. Here's another example showing the two types of the radar-antenna housing in the same squadron but on two different PBJ-versions:

On the other hand the canon equipped PBJ-1H of VMB 613 couldn't use another version of the radar-antenna but the wing mounted:

Same with the 8-gun nosed strafers (e.g. from VMB 413):

 

[CATCH 22]

Several posts in this thread deal with the modified weapons of B-25G in the SWPA or other Pacific areas. 41st and 42nd BG are two of the most prominent users. I described many of the field- or factory modifications known as B-25G1 or B-25G12 (sometimes G2). Some of them had in the early modification-trials single 0.5 MG under the wings (over the bomb bay) but the majority had double gun-packs on each side of the nose. For the first time I found a picture of a mod with a single gun (in a double pack enclosure). It could be a temporary measure, in the same manner as the two guns on some J/H planes were sometimes reduced to one. I believe this is a B-25G12 from the 42nd BG, called "Dottie":

I found a photo of the same a/c in my archive, showing the nose art and the top gun - IMHO this is an earlier photo compared to the top one.

To visualize the difference - see below another modified B-25G12 from the same BG with the standard double gun-pack:

Cheers!

 

[Wurger]

 

[hw97karbine]

PBJ-1J Mitchell target practice with 11.75-inch "Tiny Tim" unguided rockets off the coast of Iwo Jima in June 1945

 

[B25Nut]

PBJ-1J Mitchell target practice with 11.75-inch "Tiny Tim" unguided rockets off the coast of Iwo Jima in June 1945

View attachment 829019

That hose nose and lack of a top turret sure takes away from the character (beauty?) of the B-25.

 

[Hornet133]

Yes that is 'Dottie' which I have as being #42-65143. As you can see 'Dottie got her tail wet'

 

[CATCH 22]

Yes that is 'Dottie' which I have as being #42-65143. As you can see 'Dottie got her tail wet'

Hornet, thanks for the additional input! Based on the s/n you provided, I checked the MACR for this a/c (#5661).
"Dottie" was with the 69th BS, 42nd BG. The type of the plane is shown as G-1 in the report. This particular plane is in fact B-25G-10 (block -10) so the G-1 is another way of showing that it was a modified B-25G or a G1. Now to the most interesting part: installed guns. Only eight (8) M-2 guns are listed?!?

But "Dottie" has 6 guns in the nose only! Plus 2 in the top turret and here are the 8! What about gun packs, waist and tail? Now the List of the crew gives us some more clues: there are 5 crew members, pilot + co-pilot (no bombardier, no navigator), a radio operator, engineer gunner and gunner. Considering that the RO is usually a gunner too, there are 3 gunners in the back! The "engineer gunner" is usually the top turret gunner. The simply "gunner" is normally the tail gunner. The radio operator uses the waist guns or in case of G1 planes, the 0.30 guns in the photographer's windows. No 0.30-guns have been listed here, but also no tail gun and no waist guns.
I really don't know how many guns are missing in the MACR and why. Maybe because there is place for 8 weapons only? Those modified planes usually received a separate sheet in the MACR for the guns only. Maybe the person who wrote the MACR was not experienced enough (check the mistake with the type of plane and serial number written in the fields for type of engine and s/n of engines).
Hornet133, do you have any further thoughts? Nevertheless an interesting conundrum!

For comparison only I'm attaching a similar weapons-list from a MACR for a B-25G1 from the 38th BG. This is the real G1, with either 2 single blister guns under the wings or only one twin gun-pack in the nose, plus 2x 0.30 in the photographer's windows (called here waist guns), no tail gun:

This particular a/c 4264835 had 5-men crew but 2 gunners only.
Cheers!

 

[CATCH 22]

That hose nose and lack of a top turret sure takes away from the character (beauty?) of the B-25.

I agree with the first part of your statement - there is no angle from which a "hose-nosed" Mitchell looks good. But I disagree with the second part. There are a lot of beautiful (some still flying) "turretless" birds. IMHO without turrets and with no tail gunner's canopy B-25 has the best look. Not as a bomber, as a plane.

B-25C production in NAA-factory Inglewood, in a period when no turrets have been available to finalize the production.

Post-war use as a trainer by the RCAF. Pure elegance!

 

[hw97karbine]

B-25G fitted with the 75mm M4 gun tested on the ground circa 1943

 

[SaparotRob]

.. There are a lot of beautiful (some still flying) "turretless" birds. IMHO without turrets and with no tail gunner's canopy B-25 has the best look. Not as a bomber, as a plane.

I agree. I feel the same way about the B-17. Over the years I became less of a purist and more of an aficionado of the plane's lines. The same holds true for most bombers.
The TBF/TBM , for some reason, seems to need it.

 

[Micdrow]

Dont remember ever seeing this camera setup before.

 

[CATCH 22]

Dont remember ever seeing this camera setup before.

View attachment 829822

Hi Paul! The camera is in an unusual location, you're right. Looks like the bombardier makes photos with it. Do you have the full nose photo or just this detail? It looks like this (modified) early B-25 has 2x0.30 on both sides of the nose, not only one (I've seen the same configuration in the 3rdBG and later in the 38th BG). The guns are mounted on some kind of a base. Do you have the central nose gun as well?
Now, when you have shown us the "right way", it's kind of easier to check for the same camera position in more photos. I found it immediately in one of the 3rd BG planes, at Charters Towers (see detail below):

Cheers!
P.S. "Lucky Star" from the 38th BG. has it as well (IMHO):

 

[Micdrow]

Hi Paul! The camera is in an unusual location, you're right. Looks like the bombardier makes photos with it. Do you have the full nose photo or just this detail? It looks like this (modified) early B-25 has 2x0.30 on both sides of the nose, not only one (I've seen the same configuration in the 3rdBG and later in the 38th BG). The guns are mounted on some kind of a base. Do you have the central nose gun as well?
Now, when you have shown us the "right way", it's kind of easier to check for the same camera position in more photos. I found it immediately in one of the 3rd BG planes, at Charters Towers (see detail below):
View attachment 829887
Cheers!
P.S. "Lucky Star" from the 38th BG. has it as well (IMHO):
View attachment 829888

Morning Yves,

Unfortunately this is all I have for this one. But will check around. Great feedback on other aircraft with this configuration.

 

[hw97karbine]

Dont remember ever seeing this camera setup before.

View attachment 829822

Could it be a gun camera?

I can't confirm it but I think something similar might have been used to capture this footage towards the end of this compilation

Note the firing indicator at the top left of the frame that disappears from view to indicate the trigger is being pulled. The gun barrel visible in the frame suggests this was filmed from the nose of a twin-engined aircraft rather than a single-engined one. That said, the tracers coming from other aircraft attacking are clearly from wing guns due to the separation, but the B-25 did carry underwing gun pods too.

 

[CATCH 22]

... but the B-25 did carry underwing gun pods too.

No, it didn't. B-25 had nose gun packs and only in specific cases I wrote about, the latter were mounted in the area over the bomb bay but on the fuselage sides.
There is no way a camera in a B-25 nose to film the gun pack barrels - they were further back. This could be the nose gun only, but those Mitchells above (photos Paul and I posted) are not strafers - this is the bomber-configuration with additional defensive armament in the nose. Typical mod in the Pacific, during the first years of the war with a lot of Japanese fighters attacking. When the strafer was born the real gun-camera was mounted in the cockpit.
It is possible though that the leading a/c (flight, box etc.) had the camera installed to film the bombing run. I'm wild guessing here. In the meantime IMHO this is another 3rd BG Mitchell with (possibly) camera in the nose preparing to take off. It doesn't have any nose guns!

And a detail of a modified B-25 (multiple guns in the nose) with what we call "camera", if it really is one. Another 3rd BG. a/c. Check the (rare) fixed 0.30 gun in the nose on the left (bottom) side. The fixed 0.50 on the right side and the flexible in the center are already factory mods (Fairfax). This a/c has 5 guns in the nose:2x0.50 and 3x0.30.

Original photo from NARA-collection via Fold3, made in Port Moresby, 27 Nov. 1942. I'm attaching it in full size if somebody wants to further zoom-in.

 

[CATCH 22]

Morning Yves,

Unfortunately this is all I have for this one. But will check around. Great feedback on other aircraft with this configuration.

Thanks Paul! Check all your 3rd BG photos and the 38th BG as well. There are many photos, where one can find something. I think you said once you have the book "The Grim Reapers at work...". I don't have it. There might be some info there as well.

 

[CATCH 22]

Could it be a gun camera?

I can't confirm it but I think something similar might have been used to capture this footage towards the end of this compilation

View attachment 829996

Note the firing indicator at the top left of the frame that disappears from view to indicate the trigger is being pulled. The gun barrel visible in the frame suggests this was filmed from the nose of a twin-engined aircraft rather than a single-engined one. That said, the tracers coming from other aircraft attacking are clearly from wing guns due to the separation, but the B-25 did carry underwing gun pods too.

I checked the footage again and again and your theory about the twin-engined a/c is quite plausible. This particular a/c is obviously strafing. This could be a gun camera in the nose of a B-25H for example. Why is the camera "seeing" one gun only and not two is a different question. Here is what I'm thinking of: