33k in the air
Staff Sergeant
- 1,354
- Jan 31, 2021
Huh? I've never seen that. The B-24 normally carried ten crew, same as the B-17. The B-29 had eleven crew, with one being a dedicated radar operator.
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In a B-17, we have a crew of 10 people, not all of which are always lost when the aircraft is lost. In a B-24, we have a crew of 11. The B-24 has a separate nose gunner while the B-17 has a nose gunner/bombardier.
Sure it is! A probability of survival, is a probability of survival, whether it is fatalities, wounded, missing in action, accidents, and so on. The starting point is different. I agree that a bomber loss is not the same as fatalities, however, the model (whatever model you choose) is the same. The parameterization is different, that's all.
Jim
That is what is published where I Iooked, but you could be correct.
Yes, but my point was the model is a survival model and the model is the same.I've never seen any source which cites eleven as the normal crew complement of the B-24. I've only ever seen ten, excluding pathfinder aircraft which might carry an additional crewman, or cases where an aircraft was carrying an observer.
The listing of crew members for missions listed at the 392nd Bomb Group website nearly always shows ten crew on board. (This dropped to nine when the ball turret was removed.)
Yes, but my point was the model is a survival model and the model is the same.
True.Yes, but my point was the model is a survival model and the model is the same.
Not defending Wiki but sometimes references are given for some of the data at the bottom of the page. I feel more comfortable when I can see a second source from a Wiki article.Check: Consolidated B-24 Liberator - Wikipedia
Granted, Wiki is the worst source except for NO source, but I didn't feel the need to dispute the crew number when I looked at it briefly.
Technically, I suppose EVERYTHING in Wiki is suspect.
Sometimes it's all we have and also what we use if we are lazy. There some material on the "care and feeding" by crews carrying the Grand Slam bomb (aka special store in the ORBs) evidently the weight of the thing caused the a/c to "wallow" and crews were instructed to not fight the wallow and oversteer. useful, as I don't have the book by Flowers.Not defending Wiki but sometimes references are given for some of the data at the bottom of the page. I feel more comfortable when I can see a second source from a Wiki article.
Check: Consolidated B-24 Liberator - Wikipedia
Granted, Wiki is the worst source except for NO source, but I didn't feel the need to dispute the crew number when I looked at it briefly.
From that page's 'Design' section, at the start of the sixth paragraph down:
"The Liberator carried a crew of up to ten."
Go down a little farther, near the bottom, and look at "Specifications" and look at "Crew."
Unless I am blind, it says 11 and names them.
But, hey, I could be blind. You might think that I'm blind by my typos in here.
Also depends on what variant of bomber is being discussed - this would fall under "familiarity".As I said, I've never seen any reference book saying eleven was the normal crew complement. As this is a WWII-focused forum,, I expected most people here would have some familiarity with the better known aircraft of the time, and thus have been aware that the B-17 and B-24 carried ten crew as standard. So someone not knowing that is a bit surprising to me, that's all.
And also depends on the duty requirements. Lancasters typically had a crew complement of 7, but could have as many as 8 and even 9 (pathfinders). and as few as Edit: 5 (617 squadron with 22,000 Grand Slam, WOp and MUG vacant positions to save weight).Also depends on what variant of bomber is being discussed…
Occasionally, a B-17 or B-24 might have an observer, but for typical bombing missions, the B-17Gs had 10 and B-24Js had 11 crewmen for standard assignment.And also depends on the duty requirements. Lancasters typically had a crew complement of 7, but could have as many as 8 and even 9 (pathfinders). and as few as 6 (617 squadron).
Jim
But if you know every aspect and every spec number of most WWII airplanes off the top of your head, without looking up the occasional number, and you never make a mistake, more power to you.
The early B-24s had ten crewmen, but from the early-J variant onward, had eleven as standard.
And also depends on the duty requirements. Lancasters typically had a crew complement of 7, but could have as many as 8 and even 9 (pathfinders). and as few as Edit: 5 (617 squadron with 22,000 Grand Slam, WOp and MUG vacant positions to save weight).
| Month | Lost to | Lost to |
| Month | Fighter | Flak |
Sep-42 | 9.50 | |
Oct-42 | 9.83 | 9.00 |
Nov-42 | 10.50 | 10.25 |
Dec-42 | 10.00 | |
Jan-43 | 10.11 | 10.00 |
Feb-43 | 10.27 | 10.00 |
Mar-43 | 9.91 | 10.00 |
Apr-43 | 9.94 | 10.00 |
May-43 | 10.11 | 10.06 |
Jun-43 | 9.91 | 9.93 |
Jul-43 | 10.05 | 10.03 |
Aug-43 | 10.04 | 10.05 |
Sep-43 | 10.03 | 10.10 |
Oct-43 | 10.05 | 10.10 |
Nov-43 | 10.00 | 10.00 |
Dec-43 | 10.04 | 10.03 |
Jan-44 | 10.02 | 10.04 |
Feb-44 | 9.92 | 10.08 |
Mar-44 | 9.93 | 9.67 |
Apr-44 | 9.90 | 9.90 |
May-44 | 9.86 | 9.65 |
Jun-44 | 9.57 | 9.24 |
Jul-44 | 8.97 | 9.05 |
Aug-44 | 9.03 | 8.94 |
Sep-44 | 8.88 | 8.48 |
Oct-44 | 9.20 | 8.30 |
Nov-44 | 8.31 | 8.53 |
Dec-44 | 7.92 | 8.77 |
Jan-45 | 9.54 | 8.39 |
Feb-45 | 9.17 | 8.11 |
Mar-45 | 8.78 | 8.66 |
Apr-45 | 9.03 | 8.88 |