Battle of Britain - 80yrs Ago This Summer - Discussion Thread

[Hornchurch]

Figured as it's an astounding 80-yrs ago, Eight-decades THIS summer, that we may as well have a discussion thread

Maybe, just maybe you guys might wanna discuss 'events/markings/insignia/heraldry/individual-tales, etc ?


It's often said that the chronological 'span' of the Battle of Britain Timeline was : 10 July 1940 – 31 October 1940


Whatever, it's indisputable that it caused some of the greatest & most significant air-combat of the war.

Fact remains that 'D-Day' 6th June 1944 could NEVER have been launched from England, had it "fallen" in 1940

Even that single factor alone kinda states it's importance, not just that of a nation, but of the West - and 'The Free World'

Plus it also meant that Adolf Hitler & his (previously), "All Conquering Armies", would be tied-down on a war on TWO fronts.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I'd like to kick this thread off, with an interesting tale about a Hornchurch Spitfire pilot, who got savagely beaten-up by his own side !!!!

I first learned of this 'local' event, because my own Mother was one who attended, shortly AFTER the poor guy was assualted.

Just by the turn of events what happened, you CAN see just how 'incensed' London folks were by German Bombing & yet another war, so soon.

She'd just mentioned, "This poor guy parachuted down & they beat the living $h-t out of him, before someone finally intervened"

My own Mother, along with other neighbours, hearing that "A German Pilot has parachuted-in/baled-out, just down the road..." ran to see it.

It's one of those (previously unsubstantiated), stories/tales that you hear of (war-stories), that just BEG for further investigation.

Having heard this "London Civilian Beatings" tale, I took-up the reins & went to 'Valence House' in Dagenham, Essex.

I spoke to the archive AND museum curator, who was most very obliging in helping me track both THIS, plus a 12th July 1944 'V.1' incident.

Having explained the tale, in full (of what I knew), he set me onto a microfische-machine, then EVERY local-newspaper headline-page.

Finally having traced it, he went to get the folder, containing an ORIGINAL Sept' 1940 actual physical copy itself, so, I got to see it & photocopy it.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Here's the actual 603 Squadron Hornchurch Spitfire that was involved in the 'shoot-down' (& Assault) incident.


Spitfire coded, 'XT-N' - serial number 'X.4271', flown on 31st August 1940, by Plt/Off George Gilroy

And HERE below, is the 6th Sept' edition of 'The Dagenham Post', relating to the 31st Aug' incident, just a week-earlier.

The incident which took-place, involving Plt/Off Gilroy, is the column over on the far-left-hand-side of the newspaper, below.

Here are some of the salient points that I'd learned/acquired over the last five-decades, from both witnesses & reports.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


31st August 1940 ; Pilot Officer George Gilroy, flying Spitfire X.4271, coded 'XT-N'

Shot down over London by an attacking Messerschmitt.Me.109-E, Gilroy then bails-out from his Spitfire.

"X.4271" crashes at Wanstead-flats, vast London grasslands & playing-fields, whilst separation is around 18,000ft

Gilroy's parachute is caught in the prevailing westerly wind, causing him to land many miles away from 'X.4271's impact.

Gilroy lands in Dagenham, Essex, near the "Merry Fiddlers" Public-House/Pub, near Becontree, approx' 5 miles due East

It's a busy junction, heavily populated, not far from Dagenham's HUGE 1930's stylish & modernistic "Art-Deco" Town Hall


Incensed Dagenham & London residents then set about attacking Gilroy, mistakenly thinking that he IS a German pilot !!!!!

(Remember, it's still only August 1940, the 'Blitz' is yet to take place - But this is the 2nd war w/Germans in quick succession)


Gilroy gets punched in the face, mistaken for a '109 pilot (!)

Whilst the baying 'mob' continue to punch & attack him.... his parachute flung over a wall, limiting his defensive movement (& injured


He shouts "Don't shoot me, I'm British" - (He's Scottish, IIRC) = Classic 'War-movie' lines, but in this instance, it's "Real"

Clearly the mob had arrived, armed & not just with pitchforks - Hence the 'Don't shoot me' line.....

A fight (it seems) then broke-out; Those defending & attacking him.

A Bus Driver (local 25 route), broke-up the attacking crowd

It's also claimed that the Bus driver said/yelled/shouted.... (witnesses), "Don't you recognise one of your own ?"

Ironic, as Gilroy was a Hornchurch Spitfire pilot (603 Sqdn), who, were based quite literally in a neighbouring town along the A.13

Dagenham & Hornchurch ARE only separated by "The Chase" (It's a small stretch of open farmland/wasteland with a Pub & Cemetery)

Another rather puzzling thing is this.....

Gilroy IS taken to the 'old' Hospital in Ilford - King George's Hospital is by Newbury Park (A.12/A.127), next to RAF Fairlop.
(Not to be confused with the modern/rubbish/Barley Lane equivalent, thereof !)

Meanwhile, whilst only yards down the road, is the equally large "Oldchurch Hospital" (Romford, close to 'incident' & 603's base)

The equally major "Oldchurch Hospital" (demolished 2004) is by far the nearer of the two

RAF Stapleford Tawney's 46 Sqdn Hurricane pilots WERE admitted there, at this time, so, it WAS in use, during summer 1940


Gilroy's injuries keep him out of action for nearly a month He isn't released (from King George's Hospital), until 17th September 1940

He does then, return to RAF Hornchurch & his own 603 Sqdn flight.


An interesting point of note is this ; Gilroy's Spitfire, X.4271 has LESS than 4-hrs flight time

It was delivered to 603.Sqdn only the day before he got shot-down & beaten-up by angry civilians. (Previously at an 'M.U.')

So, the next question invariably will be, "How comes you know so much?"

Well, My Mother attended the incident & told me as a child - kinda like a family 'war-story' ya hear, every once in a while.

I'd contacted Valence House Libraries Archive-Section-Museum, purely to 'corroborate' what I'd been told, over the years.

The curator was beyond FANTASTIC, only too keen to help - In fact, he helped MORE on the V.1 'Doodlebug' inquiry**
**( but that's another separate story, in itself !)

He put me onto a 'microfiche machine' & I went researching.

Within 15-20mins, I'd hit the "Eureka" tab, finding the incident as a headline, photocopying it, onto an 'A3' sized sheet**
** (back in the day, 1940, this WAS a broadsheet newspaper)

I have the copy & it ties-in nicely with everything what I'd been told/heard, by witnesses who were there !

In addition, the Aviation Incident Network entry further info' ' CLICK TO READ LINK ENTRY ; HERE

Later, hopefully in some more detail, I'd ALSO like to discuss the AMAZING combat involving 249 Sqdn Hawker Hurricane pilot, Percy Burton**

I've been beside his gravestone, in a pure 'chance encounter' (unexpected visit), having already known about the combat & his death - A brave lad indeed.

.

 

[Hornchurch]

Here's an interesting 'gun-camera' shot, of an Me.110 under direct attack, in the heat of the moment

Caption (official caption), says...

"Taken from gun footage from a Spitfire of No. 609 Squadron, flown by Pilot Officer M E Staples" (during a raid on Bristol, England)

"It shows a Messerschmitt Bf 110 banking steeply to port as it tries to avoid Staples' gun fire, 27 September 1940"

.

 

[PAT303]

So here is a question, if you were shooting at that Me110 were would you be aiming?.

 

[herman1rg]

My aiming point

 

[Admiral Beez]

So here is a question, if you were shooting at that Me110 were would you be aiming?.

If I have a gyro gunsight, I'm aiming at the ball. Edit.... not available until 1941. In that case, same as above.

As a lad I loved reading about the BoB. We moved to Canada from UK in 1976 when I was five, so my grandparents on the Isle of Wight would send parcels with the latest issues of Battle, Commando and Warlord (and Beano, of course). One fictional story in one of those magazines didn't make sense to me even as a preteen, where the BoB RAF pilot, Killer Kane (see list of characters) complained about his seemingly unreliable Hurricane, and then rejoicing when his unit converted to Spitfires. Same engine, same electronics, etc, I thought to my young self.

Anyway, I devoured any BoB books I could find. Starting of course with Townsend's Duel of Eagles, followed by Robert Stanford Tuck's (see Wikipedia for how Tuck's brother in law died) Fly For Your Life and Douglas Bader's Reach For The Sky. I am very glad to be born in the early 70s as I got to hear first person accounts of the BoB from Grandparents, uncles and aunts.

 

[Greyman]

So here is a question, if you were shooting at that Me110 were would you be aiming?.

We'd have to see him in motion to make a real guess. Maybe he's laying on some mean rudder or jamming down on the stick ...

 

[nuuumannn]

A few photos I took two years ago during my RAF 100 tour of the UK in 2018. Stations:

Memorial outside the former RAF Hawkinge.

2307 Hawkinge memorial

RAF Hawkinge's watch office is now within the complex of the Hawkinge Battle of Britain Museum. Note the Hurricane reproductions.

2307 Hawkinge watch office

The base of a hangar at RAF Hawkinge, note the door rails.

2307 Hawkinge hangar door rails

Althbough a few years too early, this Fi 103 reproduction guards the entrance to the RAF Manston History Museum, which is located on the site of the airfield. Its post-war control tower can be seen in the distance.

2307 RAF Manston History Museum Fi 103

222 Sqn honour board within the Spitfire and Hurricane Memorial at the former RAF Manston.

2307 Manston Spitfire and Hurricane Memorial 222 Sqn Battle Honours

Former RAF Westhampnett watch tower. The site is now Goodwood race track.

2806 Westhampnett Tower

The former RAF Westhampnett is still active, with the airfield within the Goodwood track. This is a Boultbee Flight Academy Spit IX two-seater SM520.

SM520 ii

RAF Tangmere's Watch tower today.

2907 Tangmere tower

Perimeter track and view of where Tangmere's line of hangars used to exist. The tower is to the right of the picture out of view.

2907 Tangmere airfield

Blue plaque outside the entrance to the former RAF Biggin Hill.

2906 Biggin Hill Blue plaque

Biggin Hill entry gates.

2907 RAF Biggin Hill

Biggin Hill is also still active today and is home to the Biggin Hill Heritage Hangar restoration facility. In keeping with our BoB theme, in the background to the right is the RAF BoB Memorial Flight's Spitfire IIa P7350, which flew during the battle. During my visit, photographing the aircraft was not permitted, hence this background shot.

Biggin Hill Hangar

Memorial outside RAF Croydon.

2907 RAF Croydon monument

The remains of Croydon's concrete runway. 92 Sqn Spitfires were based here during the battle.

2907 Croydon runway remains

Croydon airport's classic watchtower and terminal.

2907 Croydon Tower

RAF Hendon, now home the the RAF Museum was operational during the battle; this, believe it or not is museum offices built onto a surviving Great War hangar.

0407 RAFM Historic Hangars

603 Sqn memorial at the former RAF Turnhouse, now Edinburgh Airport.

2007 603 Sqn Monument

Spitfire-on-a-stick at Turnhouse is a Mk.IX but depicts Sqn Ldr George Denholm's Mk.Ia L1067 'Blue Peter'.

2007 603 Sqn Spitfire

RAF Bentley Priory now serves as private accommodation and is in a gated community. Hugh 'Stuffy' Dowding's office has been preserved and is the third window on the right of the three larger windows to the left of the columned balcony.

1707 Bentley Priory front

Hurricane-on-a-stick outside Bentley Priory is in the markings of Hurricane I P2921 of Flt Lt Pete Brothers of 32 Sqn.

1707 Bentley Priory Hurricane

Spitfire-on-a-stick outside Bentley Priory is in the markings of Sgt Cyril Bamberger of 610 Sqn.

1707 Bentley Priory Spitfire

 

[nuuumannn]

Battle of Britain aircraft:

RAF Museum Battle of Britain veterans: Bf 109E-4B W/Nr 4101 shot down outside of the BoB timeline in November 1940, but did take part in the battle.

0507 RAFM Bf 109E

Spitfire I X4590 in 609 Sqn markings.

0507 RAFM Spitfire I

Fiat CR.42 MM5701 was forced down in November 1940, but the Italian detachment to Belgium began operations in mid October against Britain.

0507 RAFM CR-42

Hurricane I P2617 in 607 Sqn markings.

0507 RAFM Hurricane I

Hawker Hurricane I P3179 was with 43 Sqn and was nominally based at Tangmere, but was on detachment out of Northolt and, piloted by Sgt Dennis Noble was shot down on 30 August 1940, crashing in Hove. Noble was killed. The remains of his aircraft are on display in the excellent but crowded little Tangmere Aviation Museum.

2907 Tangmere Aviation Museum Hurricane

Bf 109E-3 of 4/JG 26 was piloted by U/Off Horst Perez when it was shot down on 30 September 1940, belly landing at East Dean, W Sussex. It spent the next few years touring Canada and the United States. It is on display at IWM Duxford.

0707 Duxford Bf 109

The world's only surviving complete Boulton Paul Defiant N1671 was received by 307 Sqn in September 1940 for night operations.

1207 RAFM Cosford Defiant

The Science Museum, South Kensington's Spitfire Ia P9444 in 72 Sqn markings and its Hurricane I L1592 in 615 Sqn were both active during the battle.

0407 Science Museum Aviation Gallery

Hurricane I P3351 scrapes in as it crash landed at RAF Prestwick in late July 1940, after which it was overhauled and converted into a Mk.II as DR393 and sent to Russia. It is seen here at Flying Legends 2018 at Duxford.

Hurricane static-2

At the Yorkshire Air Museum at Elvington is this full scale mock-up Spitfire in the markings of a 609 West Riding Sqn aircraft as there is a memorial to the squadron within the museum.

0807 Yorkshire Air Museum 609 Sqn Spitfire

 

[nuuumannn]

Memorials and sites of interest relating to the battle.

The Battle of Britain Memorial at Capel Le Ferne.

2307 Battle of Britain Memorial Capel le Ferne 1940

The centrepiece is this stylised propeller with a pilot figure seated at its centre, looking out into the horizon.

2307 Battle of Britain Memorial Capel le Ferne

The pilot figure surrounded by squadrons and units that took part in the battle.

2307 Battle of Britain Memorial Capel le Ferne sculpture

The wall of remembrance honouring those who lost their lives in action during the battle. Busts of Dowding and Park in the background.

2307 Battle of Britain Memorial Capel le Ferne wall

Plastic Spitfire at Capel in the markings of R6675 of 65 Sqn flown by Supermarine test pilot Jeffrey Quill, who wanted operational experience to see for himself how the Spitfire behaved in a combat environment.

2307 Battle of Britain Memorial Capel le Ferne Spitfire

Plastic Hurricane at Capel in the markings of P2970 of 56 Sqn flown by P Off Geoffrey Page, who was shot down and suffered terrible burns to his body, but survived to fly again after masterful plastic surgery by New Zealand born surgeon Archibald MacIndoe.

2307 Battle of Britain Memorial Capel le Ferne Hurricane

The Battle of Britain Memorial wall on the Westminster Embankment on the Thames River a stone's throw from parliament, London.

1707 London Battle of Britain memorial

The RAF Memorial also on the bank of the Thames in the heart of London.

1707 London RAF Memorial

A blue plaque dedicated to Sydney Camm, who lived in this house in Windsor.

1607 Windsor Sydney Camm house

Damage done to a building at RAF Eastchurch during the war, shot up by a low flying Dornier Do 17 during the battle. Although in use throughout the battle, Eastchurch was a Coastal Command station.

2107 Isle of Sheppey Eastchurch Station wall

Chain Home radar aerials still standing at Dover. These are standing on what was the former Royal Flying Corps airfield at Swingate.

2307 Swingate Chain Home towers

The Jackdaw Public House was frequented by RAF crews from Hawkinge, but is best remembered for its role in the 1967 feature film Battle of Britain.

2307 Kent The Jackdaw

A plaque from a Battle of Britain Class Locomotive on display at the National Railway Museum, York.

0907 National Railway Museum Spitfire

Spitfire prototype sculpture outside the terminal at the former Eastleigh airfield, Southampton, from where the Spitfire first took to the sky in 1936.

2806 Southampton Airport Eastleigh

Those white cliffs...

2307 White Cliffs of Dover

Finally, the RAF Battle of Britain Memorial Flight Trenchard Formation.

1407 RIAT Trenchard Formation

 

[Hornchurch]

Memorials and sites of interest relating to the battle.

The Battle of Britain Memorial at Capel Le Ferne.

View attachment 5899282307 Battle of Britain Memorial Capel le Ferne 1940

The centrepiece is this stylised propeller with a pilot figure seated at its centre, looking out into the horizon.

View attachment 5899292307 Battle of Britain Memorial Capel le Ferne

Plastic Hurricane at Capel in the markings of P2970 of 56 Sqn flown by P Off Geoffrey Page, who was shot down and suffered terrible burns to his body, but survived to fly again after masterful plastic surgery by New Zealand born surgeon Archibald MacIndoe.

View attachment 5899332307 Battle of Britain Memorial Capel le Ferne Hurricane


Chain Home radar aerials still standing at Dover. These are standing on what was the former Royal Flying Corps airfield at Swingate.

View attachment 5899382307 Swingate Chain Home towers

The Jackdaw Public House was frequented by RAF crews from Hawkinge, but is best remembered for its role in the 1967 feature film Battle of Britain.

View attachment 5899392307 Kent The Jackdaw

Those white cliffs...

View attachment 5899402307 White Cliffs of Dover

Absolute scorcher of a post, an absolute belter !

I deleted some (a few), of your pix in the 'quote' section, above - Then left the ones that resonate with me, the most.

Also brings back many, many happy memories of a wonderful holiday, spent at "St.Margaret's En Cliffe" in summer 2001.

(This, despite the fact it was only about a 45-50 drive from my house)

Had a GREAT time with my kids there & your pix bought back many wonderful happy memories of what simply is, a BEAUTIFUL & Historic place.

I was also born not far from North Weald aerodrome (actually, nearer to it's satellite, RAF-Fairlop), & the famous 'US' (56) & 'GN' (249) coded Hurricanes

Am particularly taken by the SUPERB shot of Dover's cliffs, but from memory, that was taken slightly further South, rather than near where we were staying.

(I even got to meet an RAF Boeing B.17 'Fortress.III' crew member at St.Margaret's, who lived near a cove, by the cliffs - He was amazing)

.

 

[Deleted member 68059]

 

[FalkeEins]

..in a 'new' spirit of reconciliation there has been an addition to the memorial at Capel - a life-size 'sculpture' of a Stuka by a German artist

and in case you've missed it, the Hawkinge museum has 'restored' the former Duxford Heinkel/Casa to fully H-16 status - just awaiting some 'new' Jumos..which are en route

 

[nuuumannn]

the Hawkinge museum has 'restored' the former Duxford Heinkel/Casa to fully H-16 status - just awaiting some 'new' Jumos..which are en route

Fantastic to see, I'm surprised they allowed you to photograph there, they have always been really snarky about photography. The 'Heinkel' looks great and I see they've applied a suitable coat of paint to the Bolingbroke masquerading as a Blenheim in the background. You can just make it out in the Hawkinge photo I took to the right of the watch office.

 

[FalkeEins]

Fantastic to see, I'm surprised they allowed you to photograph there, they have always been really snarky about photography. The 'Heinkel' looks great

Turns out from the constructor's plate located only just recently under layers of old paint that this was an original He 111 H-16 produced in Germany in or around 1943 - and then shipped to Spain where it acquired the RR engines. There are even some bullet holes suggesting that it saw 'active' service with the Luftwaffe. I was lucky enough to be present when the original 02 Grau primer was revealed on the internal wing parts. The paint for the new finish was manufactured especially for the renovation by a local automotive respray shop. The local modelling group was allowed access for photos..

 

[Airframes]

Great to see the "Heinkel" finally restored. I presume it's the one that languished at DX for many years, still in Spanish colours ?

 

[buffnut453]

Seems like there's no need for inverted commas around the Heinkel sice, per FalkeEins' post, it's an original German machine built in 1943. I think it's wonderful that this aircraft is being restored to its original configuration.

 

[FalkeEins]

Whatever, it's indisputable that it caused some of the greatest & most significant air-combat of the war.

yes, we tend to think that in the UK - I'm not sure anybody else does - especially the Germans. Jules Meimberg who flew in JG 2 during the 'battle' always thought the 'so-called' Battle of Britain was small beer compared to defending the Reich against hundreds of four-engined bombers day-in day-out..in the chapter on the Battle in his (German-language) memoir he wrote that the Germans didn't have a hope of winning and it was not at all the close-run thing it is usually thought to have been "..It was not until today that I grasped just how big a city London is. Brussels, Paris, even Berlin are tiny in comparison. What sort of effect could we hope to achieve with a few hundred bombs on a metropolis like this, aside from inflicting a few scratches..?"
As for the Battle of Britain itself one German author came up with some interesting stats; For around 20 days at the height of the battle there were no German aircraft at all in the skies of England. When the bombers turned on London in September, the 1,000 Luftwaffe aircraft of the British 'official' history were never more than 400. On only two occasions (September 7 and 15) could the Luftwaffe put more than 300 bombers in the air and on nearly 20 days of the battle the Luftwaffe flew fewer than 200 sorties..

 

[pbehn]

For around 20 days at the height of the battle there were no German aircraft at all in the skies of England. When the bombers turned on London in September, the 1,000 Luftwaffe aircraft of the British 'official' history were never more than 400. On only two occasions (September 7 and 15) could the Luftwaffe put more than 300 bombers in the air and on nearly 20 days of the battle the Luftwaffe flew fewer than 200 sorties..

That was the crux of the battle, the LW was running out of serviceable bombers and crews and so had to give up. To use 300 bombers every day on operations you need many more than 300 bombers stationed at airfields.

 

[buffnut453]

yes, we tend to think that in the UK - I'm not sure anybody else does - especially the Germans. Jules Meimberg who flew in JG 2 during the 'battle' always thought the 'so-called' Battle of Britain was small beer compared to defending the Reich against hundreds of four-engined bombers day-in day-out..in the chapter on the Battle in his (German-language) memoir he wrote that the Germans didn't have a hope of winning and it was not at all the close-run thing it is usually thought to have been "..It was not until today that I grasped just how big a city London is. Brussels, Paris, even Berlin are tiny in comparison. What sort of effect could we hope to achieve with a few hundred bombs on a metropolis like this, aside from inflicting a few scratches..?"
As for the Battle of Britain itself one German author came up with some interesting stats; For around 20 days at the height of the battle there were no German aircraft at all in the skies of England. When the bombers turned on London in September, the 1,000 Luftwaffe aircraft of the British 'official' history were never more than 400. On only two occasions (September 7 and 15) could the Luftwaffe put more than 300 bombers in the air and on nearly 20 days of the battle the Luftwaffe flew fewer than 200 sorties..

We also need to be careful of applying the retrospectroscope. Remember that there were fewer than 100 4-engined strategic bombers in service in the entire world in late 1940. Yes, the Battle of Britain was relatively small beer compared to the later Allied bomber offensive over Germany. However, the BoB was still unprecedented in terms of scale and scope for an air campaign.

Some of the German quotes also have a ring of sour grapes about them. Yes, the BoB as fought was unwinnable...but, IMHO, that was only because of the stupid switch to attacking London. Trying to achieve strategic aims with a tactical air force was never going to work, particularly given the numbers and types of bombers available to the Luftwaffe in September 1940.

Things might have been very different if senior German leadership had adopted the Clausewitzian premise of selecting achievable objectives and then applying resources to achieve those ends (i.e. first principle of warfare: selection and maintenance of the aim). Had the Luftwaffe focused on neutralizing 11 Group and the supporting Chain Home infrastructure, it would have presented a very different political problem for Churchill's Government because it would have left London entirely exposed. Radar sites, Sector and Group control facilities and airfield maintenance and fuel resources were all vulnerable targets that would have severely limited 11 Group operations but the Luftwaffe never took the time to perform that pretty fundamental target systems analysis, and didn't press home the advantage when some of those targets were successfully hit.

 

[stona]

Radar sites, Sector and Group control facilities and airfield maintenance and fuel resources were all vulnerable targets that would have severely limited 11 Group operations but the Luftwaffe never took the time to perform that pretty fundamental target systems analysis, and didn't press home the advantage when some of those targets were successfully hit.

That is written with the benefit of hindsight and knowledge the Germans did not possess.

There is the practical problem that radar sites did not in fact make very vulnerable targets and then the intelligence failure that convinced the Germans that they were even less vulnerable than that.

It sounds like a great plan, to go after 11 Group's sector stations, and it would have been. The problem was another intelligence failure. The Luftwaffe did not know which aerodromes these were, they didn't even know which were active Fighter Command stations, and anyway had no idea of their significance because they did not understand the British air defence system. They didn't know how British fighters were controlled and had no inkling of the structure and integration of the system overall.