Best Ace of WW1

DerAdlerIstGelandet · Sep 15, 2006

Hunter368 said:
Totally agree with you, like I said before, there is a difference between a warrior and a killer. The Baron was a warrior, one of the best warriors.

And that is basically what I have been trying to say as well. You can not call him a killer when he just did his job extremely well and did what was expected of him.

I think that some people can not tell the difference between a killer and a soldier.

Hunter368 · Sep 15, 2006

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:
And that is basically what I have been trying to say as well. You can not call him a killer when he just did his job extremely well and did what was expected of him.

I think that some people can not tell the difference between a killer and a soldier.

Agreed, meaning no disrespect (to civilians, I am one to) but I think that most of the people who can't tell the difference are the very people who soldiers are protecting, aka civilians.

They pass judgment at times when they don't even know what it requires to get the job done. Fighting wars is a ugly ugly thing. People should not be quick to pass judgment. Instead of passing judgment on soldiers they should just thank them and appreciate the hard job they do for us. Soldiers give us the ability to go home after work, eat bon bons, watch the football game, make a good living and live in peace.

DerAdlerIstGelandet · Sep 15, 2006

I happen to agree with that.

timshatz · Sep 18, 2006

Hunter368 said:
Agreed, meaning no disrespect (to civilians, I am one to) but I think that most of the people who can't tell the difference are the very people who soldiers are protecting, aka civilians.

They pass judgment at times when they don't even know what it requires to get the job done. Fighting wars is a ugly ugly thing. People should not be quick to pass judgment. Instead of passing judgment on soldiers they should just thank them and appreciate the hard job they do for us. Soldiers give us the ability to go home after work, eat bon bons, watch the football game, make a good living and live in peace.

Dead on. I and a lot of civilians (regardless of what we did once apon a time) are now living happy, relatively carefree lives due to people who keep our nights (and days) safe. We make money, have families and generally live comfortable and in some cases nievely safe lives because of other people who dedicate their time (and possible lives) to keeping our the wolf away from the door. I do not believe for a second that the Utopian belief system consitutes reality. More it is a liberal offshoot of a life so safe that the realities of a daily life of strife (which most of the world is familiar with) to not apply.

It's good to have friends. But our enemies should fear us. People in the military are the reason they do.

DerAdlerIstGelandet · Sep 18, 2006

Could not have said it better.

Hunter368 · Sep 18, 2006

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:
Could not have said it better.

Cool camo there Chris.

timshatz · Sep 19, 2006

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:
Could not have said it better.

Yeah, pretty cool. Is that Hartman's bird with Winter Camo?

DerAdlerIstGelandet · Sep 20, 2006

Yes but how accurate it is I dont know.

timshatz · Sep 20, 2006

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:
Yes but how accurate it is I dont know.

Read his book and vaguely remember it saying he didn't fly the aircraft with the tulip nose for long. Thought the Russians were avoiding him. But it has to have been 20 years or more since I read that particular book.

Still looks cool.

DerAdlerIstGelandet · Sep 20, 2006

Not sure on that. I know his Sabre after the war when he was in the Luftwaffe in the 1950s before going to train pilots for the USAF in the United States had the tulip painted on its nose.

timshatz · Sep 20, 2006

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:
Not sure on that. I know his Sabre after the war when he was in the Luftwaffe in the 1950s before going to train pilots for the USAF in the United States had the tulip painted on its nose.

Successful advertising in any case. Make guys go find somebody else a bit easier to jump.

Hunter368 · Sep 20, 2006

timshatz said:
Read his book and vaguely remember it saying he didn't fly the aircraft with the tulip nose for long. Thought the Russians were avoiding him. But it has to have been 20 years or more since I read that particular book.

Still looks cool.

That is true, he kept it for a short while only. The Russian's learnt his call name and connected the dots with the 109 with the tulip on it and avoided it. His claims declined until he realized that and got rid of the tulip. Once he got rid of the tulip his claims increased again.

All this is from the book "The Blond Knight of Germany".

DerAdlerIstGelandet · Sep 20, 2006

Cool did not know that.

Erich · Sep 20, 2006

ah but several aces in JG 52 had colored tulip noses not just Hartmann

Hunter368 · Sep 20, 2006

Erich said:
ah but several aces in JG 52 had colored tulip noses not just Hartmann

Really? Never heard that one before. If you don't me asking Erich what is your source on that one (not doubting what you say I just would like to read it).

Like I said it was the combo of his call name and tulip that apparently gave him away. So he got rid of the tulip to help prevent the Russians from knowing in advance he was there and thus avoiding him.

Now if everyone in the JG 52 painted tulips on their planes it would of been alittle harder for them to pin point Hartmann out. Instead he just got rid of it himself.

DerAdlerIstGelandet · Sep 20, 2006

That is true. Not sure who flew it but Bf-109K-4 (Wk. Nr. 332529) had a red tulip in the Czech in May 1945.

DerAdlerIstGelandet · Sep 20, 2006

A Source:

Messerschmitt Me-109 Vol. II from 1942 to 1945 with many color profiles.

Hunter368 · Sep 20, 2006

Thanks

Erich · Sep 20, 2006

the multi volume history of JG 52 in the German, Hermann Graf had a red tulip on his machine. No, Hartmann did not have a black tulip in 45 on his G-10 or K-4 as far as I am aware. Ture enough the tulip was a character8stic marking, a dead give away if you will and easy enough to have dozens of Migs/Yaks at the Soviets disposal setting aerial traps and then spring loose

Hunter368 · Sep 20, 2006

Erich said:
the multi volume history of JG 52 in the German, Hermann Graf had a red tulip on his machine. No, Hartmann did not have a black tulip in 45 on his G-10 or K-4 as far as I am aware. Ture enough the tulip was a character8stic marking, a dead give away if you will and easy enough to have dozens of Migs/Yaks at the Soviets disposal setting aerial traps and then spring loose

Agreed I know of at least one ace where after the Russians learnt his call name set a trap for him and killed him. Just like if you were a sniper if you saw some guy wearing a commanders outfit that was a bonus, commanders outfit on was just inviting a sniper to put a bullet in your head. See Stalingrad and the thousands of sniper kills by the Russians. Alot of those were German officers.

Best Ace of WW1

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