Best Ace of WW1
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FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
Erich
the old Sage
so very true, would of liked to have conversed with him and here his stories of a time so long ago........
ok WW 1 a/c experten I posted this image some years ago, I luv the thing.
An Albatross D-Va with from left to right the following: Lt. D.R. Herman Vallendor with 5 kills, Lt. Kempf in the middle and on the left side; Lt. Gerhart Bassenge with 7 kills. photo is 1918 and no clue if the markings are black on white or ??, anyone have an ID to the unit ?
E ~
ok WW 1 a/c experten I posted this image some years ago, I luv the thing.
An Albatross D-Va with from left to right the following: Lt. D.R. Herman Vallendor with 5 kills, Lt. Kempf in the middle and on the left side; Lt. Gerhart Bassenge with 7 kills. photo is 1918 and no clue if the markings are black on white or ??, anyone have an ID to the unit ?
E ~
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bomber said:
I never said you said he was a bad pilot, read my post closely. You said I was not being objective b/c I pointed what I call characteristics that make a good pilot. I never said you called him a bad pilot, if you think I did post that quote from me. Here is the post that you called "not objective".
Bomber I have a few questions/comments for you:
1) You said the following "because B Von R was a cold blooded killer who liked nothing better than attacking scout planes".
Cold blooded killer???? He was at war doing his duty like every pilot on either side it was expected of him to shoot down enemy planes. How does that make him a "cold blooded killer"?
Who liked nothing better than attacking scout planes???? I posted for you his list of kills, did you see it???? I see alot of fighters on that list don't you?
You comment of him shooting down scout planes like that is a bad thing. Scout planes are a highly valuable target on the battle field. Whats wrong with him shooting down prime targets?
2) You said following "We think about it as 'Knights of the sky' dueling in combat.... Acts of chivalry, pilots pairing off and fighting across the sky... when they run out of ammo they wave fairwell and head back for base, a glass of claret and a singsong around the old piano."
You might think that way but I know not all of us here think the same way as you do. Air combat is anything but chivalry, at times like other areas of combat you might see the odd glimpse of chivalry but that not the rule. Air combat is combat, kill or be killed simple as that.
3) You said "A pilot that required that his tail be kept clean of the enemy by his fellow pilots... He was not a dualist, he was not chivalric."
Keep his tail clean....seems like a smart idea to me if you want to stay alive!! He was not a dualist or chivalric??? Good idea !!! Those traits will get you killed.
4) You said "He was an entirely new bread of pilot, unseen before, who brought a more professional approach to aviation combat which gave results."
Thats good thats what made him so damn good. Better than the rest of them.
Simon where I am being not objective in that post or rude to you. You claim you are not looking for a fight here but you are the only one getting excited here. All I am doing is asking you questions about your post. Believe me if you can't handle or don't like to be questioned on things you say you will not likely last long here. There is people here that know a heck alot more about WW1 or WW2 than either you or I will ever likely know. Get used to being questioned or called on your posts.
Then you said "Don't get me wrong I'm not disrespecting the man ", really??? Lets see what you have said now about him:
-because B Von R was a cold blooded killer who liked nothing better than attacking scout planes
-A pilot that required that his tail be kept clean of the enemy by his fellow pilots... He was not a dualist, he was not chivalric
Now all your comments about him were not 100% negative but those are pretty damning words right there.
I am trying to pick a fight with you??? No But I am asking you to explain yourself and your posts. If I wanted Timshatz to explain himself I would of asked him, I'm not asking him I am asking you.
You seem to be the one getting excited and maybe trying to start a fight, here is what you have said to me:
-you're clearly not objective in this...
-Try looking at what I've said
-if you can't understand my English
-Better still read this thread from beginning to end, get a fresh feel for it rather than dismissing the quotes I made..
-All because I'm new here, don't confuse this 41 year old as being soft in the head, or someone who's word you can twist for a fight.
MMM you seem to be the one using the negative or raising the tone of your posts here not me. Believe me if you want to argue about this I can, thus far I have been polite.
All I have been doing is asking you to explain yourself / your posts. So far you have avoided my clear questions about your post. Mmmmm why is that? You are the one dismissing my questions to you. Mmmmm why is that?
Side note I have read this whole thread, you posted quotes made from other people and posted those quotes when talking to me. This is what you said to me when posting those quotes:
"I'm not after a fight.. and I've said so... but the romanticized view of the man is not the reality."
This is what I said about that quote "At no point have I ever romanticized air combat in this thread."
What the heck does that quote have to do with me? I agreed with you that combat is not a romantic thing.
Simon even though you claim not to be picking a fight it seems like you purposely are heading in that direction. Answer my questions about your post in a factual way and everything will be fine. I don't see a problem here unless you make one, I am just asking you questions about your post. That is going to happen to you here alot get used to it.
davparlr
Senior Master Sergeant
The Baron! Because of his killing skills (note, I didn't say flying) and the impact he had on friends and enemy alike, and on history. But lets see, there seems to be three theories now on who killed him, the Canadian pilot Brown, Australian anti-aircraft fire, and an American dog. Since I am a typical American, I think the dog did it.
I have to agree with Hunter here. Everything you described bomber is what made him the better pilot.
I have been in forms of aerial combat (yes it is a helicoper which yes is not the same as a fighter pilot/I did 14 months in Iraq and have 656 combat hours), fighting this chivalres way that you think is better, gets you killed. If I gave the benifit of the doubt to my enemies, I would not be typing this message.
I am being objective and the "new" style that the Baron flew made him the better pilot.
He got the job done, he shot the enemy down more than they got thim.
That is the job of the fighter pilot, to kill or be killed.
He did just that and did it better than anyone.
I have been in forms of aerial combat (yes it is a helicoper which yes is not the same as a fighter pilot/I did 14 months in Iraq and have 656 combat hours), fighting this chivalres way that you think is better, gets you killed. If I gave the benifit of the doubt to my enemies, I would not be typing this message.
I am being objective and the "new" style that the Baron flew made him the better pilot.
He got the job done, he shot the enemy down more than they got thim.
That is the job of the fighter pilot, to kill or be killed.
He did just that and did it better than anyone.
davparlr said:
Agreed 100%.
Also agree on Snoopy shooting him down 100%!
DerAdlerIstGelandet said:
Thanks Chris (cool change to your sig by the way),
Thats all I have been saying to bomber or trying to get him to admit. Baron was no cold blooded killer like bomber said. He was a pilot before his time, fighting the way a fighter should fight. He was a professional warrior, fighting and doing what he could to defend his country. Thats all, nothing more or nothing less, just a warrior.
He should be given his do respect as one of the best to ever strap himself into a fighter plane.
FLYBOYJ said:
That's the guy. Looks pretty good for his middle 30s. Guess .303 rounds whizzing past your head does wonders for weight control!
On a related note, I read last night that he may've been the guy in the Red Abatross that was trying to cover Werner Voss's tail during Voss's Last Dogfight (the one where he took on something like 7 pilots from the 56th Squadron and put holes in all of them). According to what I've read, both he and Voss were shot down that day by the same guy (Rhys-Davies).
Hunter368 said:
I'm not sure if you can make a distinction between a successful warrior and a killer. The evolutionary process that takes place leads some to become better at it than others, that is true. But people are naturally averse to killing. It is something of a learned adaptation. And getting to the point at which you are really good takes time. It is a process. As you become more of a professional, it stands to reason you become a more refined killer. You are essentially refining those skills. To quote Bedford Forrest, "War means Fighting, and Fighting means Killing". Von Richtoffen refined those skills (doubtless his hunting from an early age gave him an important edge) to a point that was above his contemporaries. He did it faster and obviously better.
I draw a line between killing and murder in this arguement. It is probably beyond the scope of this thread. As a proffessional, I do not consider what he did (given the blessing of time and distance that we have) as murder. It was killing. But that was his business.
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
Some more food for thought...
Von Richthofen's style of stalking his prey, taking advantage of the situation, pressing home the attack and then breaking off when vulnerable was adopted by many other fighter pilots of WW1 and is still a basic doctrine today. Von Richthofen was the most successful and became legendary. There are many other aces who would of surpassed Von Richthofen if not killed, wounded or if the war ended when it did, Just look at Robert Little, James McCudden, and even Albert Ball who was only 8 kills short of Von Richthofen when he was killed.
Von Richthofen's style of stalking his prey, taking advantage of the situation, pressing home the attack and then breaking off when vulnerable was adopted by many other fighter pilots of WW1 and is still a basic doctrine today. Von Richthofen was the most successful and became legendary. There are many other aces who would of surpassed Von Richthofen if not killed, wounded or if the war ended when it did, Just look at Robert Little, James McCudden, and even Albert Ball who was only 8 kills short of Von Richthofen when he was killed.
FLYBOYJ said:
Good post. While he may not've orginated the slashing attack, he definitely realized it's usefulness and exploited it. Hit and gone. Or as designer of fighter aircraft once told me, "Whack the guy and be back in the bar having a drink before he knows what hit him".
Erich
the old Sage
but also notice too Richthofens tactics, aka style permeated his Jasta and later the Jagdgeschwader where "Fatty" later took over, agreesive hard hitting not giving an inch.
yes there is a difference between a warrior and a killer
yes there is a difference between a warrior and a killer
timshatz said:
100% agree with you Tim. The big thing I didn't like about Bombers post was he called him "a cold blooded killer" at the same time saying "Who liked nothing better than attacking scout planes". I see both as insults to the well earned legend and reputation of the Baron. He did his job like all the fighter pilots in WW1, they shot down planes, he just did it better then the rest of them.
Also I don't believe the handful of Military members here on our forum would like to be referred to as "cold blooded killers" simply b/c they were doing what their country trained them to do......that is protecting us civilians from the enemy. I would refrain from calling someone in the military a cold blooded killer ever, not saying that you have. He did nothing wrong or illegal during his time flying, he was just very good and did things that other pilots had even started to conceive.
He was truly years ahead of his time.
Erich said:
Totally agree with you, like I said before, there is a difference between a warrior and a killer. The Baron was a warrior, one of the best warriors.
Erich you and all our servicemen here are warriors, never to be confussed with killers. You all did what you had to do to protect your country and us.
I personally thank you for your service.
Erich
the old Sage
another chap to consider for Germany is a very late war Pour le Merit winner, Ltn. d. Reserve Ulrich Neckel of Jasta 6 the Staffelführer in the fall of 1918, he flew a very interesting camo concepted Fokker DVII. Diagonal black stripes over white that's intended useage was to throw off Allied gunners. Ulrich had Jasta 6 DvII's painted not quite all the way down the fuselage but for the most part visible the front of the fuselages all the same way: black on the white
He had 30 victories
He had 30 victories
More food for thought about Von Richtoffen's sheer drive and discipline...
He was shot down in mid 1917 and wounded by a bullet that graised his skull, leaving a 8 inch long groove through his scalp. Never really recovered fully from it, was out of action for a couple of months but got back into before he was ready. Had problems with getting sick in the cockpit as well as persistant bad headaches. Also had problems with mood swings, depression and violent flashes of temper. All are signs of a severe concussion (guess a .303 round against the skull will do that to ya') and possible brain damage.
But he went back and fought successfully even with this handicap. The day he was shot down, he showed all the symptoms of combat fatigue as well (losing track of his position, difficulty in destroying a relatively easy target, breaking his own rules on fighting by flying too low to the ground, ect). There is little doubt he was exhausted when he was killed (rumor is he was a day or two away from going on leave and possibly be ordered to stop flying) but given his nature, there was really no other option for him.
A very determined, strong person.
He was shot down in mid 1917 and wounded by a bullet that graised his skull, leaving a 8 inch long groove through his scalp. Never really recovered fully from it, was out of action for a couple of months but got back into before he was ready. Had problems with getting sick in the cockpit as well as persistant bad headaches. Also had problems with mood swings, depression and violent flashes of temper. All are signs of a severe concussion (guess a .303 round against the skull will do that to ya') and possible brain damage.
But he went back and fought successfully even with this handicap. The day he was shot down, he showed all the symptoms of combat fatigue as well (losing track of his position, difficulty in destroying a relatively easy target, breaking his own rules on fighting by flying too low to the ground, ect). There is little doubt he was exhausted when he was killed (rumor is he was a day or two away from going on leave and possibly be ordered to stop flying) but given his nature, there was really no other option for him.
A very determined, strong person.
