You guys were told to keep it civil by two moderators. You both ignored them!
Final warning. You are both receiving infractions.
Final warning. You are both receiving infractions.
Best Cold War Tank
- Thread starter futuredogfight
- Start date
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Wow so, now you will throw a tantrum and delete your posts. Very adult like.
Njaco
The Pop-Tart Whisperer
...and throw the blame on tomo. 
kettbo
Senior Airman
Instead of the Panther tank and all the complexity, IMHO, what the Germans really needed was the T-54. OK, not exactly, but something like it. Take ye something like the DB Panther prototype with a wider and lower hull with laid-back glacis. Then use a Panther-like but simplified turret, 88mm/L56 is fine and has a useful HE round compared to the 75mm gun of the Panther. Rear drive sprocket with Diesel power. Need good firepower, mobility, reliability, cruising range, and the ability to evolve.
The T34 evolved into the T34/85 then T-44, then T54. Would have been a rough road to hoe for the existing NATO armor in the early 1960. While a target at long range/desert environment, weather and terrain in NW Europe make engagement ranges in the 800-1000m band far more common than 2000-3000m bowling alley shots. Once through the Fulda, Meiningen Gaps, and others, a flood of T54s would be a challenge. RELIABILITY and MOBILITY are important for the defenders as much as the attackers. If cut off by a spearhead and your track or tank breaks down...you blow or fire the beast and shift to leather personnel carriers. If luckier, you get dragged to a collection point and the broken vehicle gets cannibalized to get other vehicles up and back into the fight.
I'll post up some gunnery and tactics stuff from the late 80s during my tour on the IGB with the 11th Armored Cavalry. Black Horse!
The T34 evolved into the T34/85 then T-44, then T54. Would have been a rough road to hoe for the existing NATO armor in the early 1960. While a target at long range/desert environment, weather and terrain in NW Europe make engagement ranges in the 800-1000m band far more common than 2000-3000m bowling alley shots. Once through the Fulda, Meiningen Gaps, and others, a flood of T54s would be a challenge. RELIABILITY and MOBILITY are important for the defenders as much as the attackers. If cut off by a spearhead and your track or tank breaks down...you blow or fire the beast and shift to leather personnel carriers. If luckier, you get dragged to a collection point and the broken vehicle gets cannibalized to get other vehicles up and back into the fight.
I'll post up some gunnery and tactics stuff from the late 80s during my tour on the IGB with the 11th Armored Cavalry. Black Horse!
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The TOW missiles (Bradley have had those) should have had no problems destroying the T-72s.
We arrive at 'KV-88' - ie. the good all-rounder, that would be both lighter and cheaper (= more examples produced) than Panther, let alone Tiger.
Summed it up very nice there, George.
Looking forward to the contribution
We arrive at 'KV-88' - ie. the good all-rounder, that would be both lighter and cheaper (= more examples produced) than Panther, let alone Tiger.
Summed it up very nice there, George.
Looking forward to the contribution
kettbo
Senior Airman
I had a lengthy response working today until my grandaughter #2 touched a key on my laptop....disappeared not to be found!
CREW TRAINING has been mentioned....individual tasks, crew drills, platoon and company/troop must all be mastered. Some of the Army Officer Corps books describe the NCOs as the masters of destruction...Lieutenants come and go....I had 25+ Gunnery Densities under my belt working my way up the NCO ranks. Tanks shoot on their tables, myself and the other 19D Cavalrymen had the M-3 CFV/Bradley.
Day table, one firing task was with the gunner's controls inop, on the bound forward the commander must ID, engage, and kill a 'BMP' in the 800-1000 meter band. You are given 10x 25mm rounds for the autocannon, have a wide range to your front. Though you probably have a good idea where the primary target will present, you must look for alternate targets if the primary does not present. The gunner is up spotting....oh, forgot to mention, the gun and sights are stabilized, you are not! Commander's controls are one hand, off to the right, sight with reticle is to the left front of the hatch. Also critical, you have 10 seconds from target lock-up to fully exposed to 'kill the bastard' as your exposure time replicates people will be looking for you and intending to fire YOU up. The gunner must ensure the turret switchology is right, switches the sight from low to high power once the vehicle commander IDs the target. Driver must stay to the course road, keep a steady platform, help spot and sense round impact.
After instructions from the Control Tower, gunners controls inop, you are told to bound forward to the next phase line. You are scanning right, gunner is up scanning left...'CONTACT LEFT, PC!' If you are very lucky you may see the target as it raises on the lifter, buys you a second or two extra. To satisify the Bradley Table scoring, the commander must give the following fire command while acquiring the target, GUNNER, BATTLESIGHT, PC, FROM MY POSITION....ON THE WAY (I'm shooting guys!!!!!)
More tomorrow
CREW TRAINING has been mentioned....individual tasks, crew drills, platoon and company/troop must all be mastered. Some of the Army Officer Corps books describe the NCOs as the masters of destruction...Lieutenants come and go....I had 25+ Gunnery Densities under my belt working my way up the NCO ranks. Tanks shoot on their tables, myself and the other 19D Cavalrymen had the M-3 CFV/Bradley.
Day table, one firing task was with the gunner's controls inop, on the bound forward the commander must ID, engage, and kill a 'BMP' in the 800-1000 meter band. You are given 10x 25mm rounds for the autocannon, have a wide range to your front. Though you probably have a good idea where the primary target will present, you must look for alternate targets if the primary does not present. The gunner is up spotting....oh, forgot to mention, the gun and sights are stabilized, you are not! Commander's controls are one hand, off to the right, sight with reticle is to the left front of the hatch. Also critical, you have 10 seconds from target lock-up to fully exposed to 'kill the bastard' as your exposure time replicates people will be looking for you and intending to fire YOU up. The gunner must ensure the turret switchology is right, switches the sight from low to high power once the vehicle commander IDs the target. Driver must stay to the course road, keep a steady platform, help spot and sense round impact.
After instructions from the Control Tower, gunners controls inop, you are told to bound forward to the next phase line. You are scanning right, gunner is up scanning left...'CONTACT LEFT, PC!' If you are very lucky you may see the target as it raises on the lifter, buys you a second or two extra. To satisify the Bradley Table scoring, the commander must give the following fire command while acquiring the target, GUNNER, BATTLESIGHT, PC, FROM MY POSITION....ON THE WAY (I'm shooting guys!!!!!)
More tomorrow
Matt308
Glock Perfection
Looks like we have us a gent from JBLM. Welcome sir!
kettbo
Senior Airman
Matt,
Thanks, I've been floating around here a few years on this site. Was at Lewis early 90-fall 91 then was detailed to Recruiting up by SEATAC airport and SouthCenter Mall. When I had the chance to come back fall of 1999, I jumped on it! ROTC OPS NCO then toe 3rd Bde, 1/14 CAV for the Initial Stryker Deployment, OIF 1.5. Retired APR 2006.
continuing from above
Single target on the offence, 10 seconds before you start losing points. A 'kill' requires three 25mm hits. Exposure times, hits required for a kill are all figured out by threat analysts, men in black. Technique here on the commander's engagement is a must; head one way to reach the sight eyepiece, right arm back to reach the commander's hand station. Left arm and hand used to steady yourself as best able. With the reticle on the target, one must give lead or reverse lead if not moving straight onto the target. Finger control, one shot with a blip of the trigger, adjust reticle on the target based on sensing, either a second single round or a 3-round burst (ROF is 450 rpm, literally sounds like boom, boom, boom run together. Favorite Gunnery memory was when I got the kill,kill,kill from the tower, called Cease Fire to complete the engagement (kill stops time clock also but you must play by the rules here). During the review/critique/scoring/what can you do better brief, saw the vid...hit with the sensing round, 3 hits with the three round burst, kill time 5 seconds.
Probably the finest gunner in the Cav, IMHO was SGT Donald Flynn. One unit had M-113A3s in the Scout Platoon (and the two other Scout Platoons in the Bde) when I arrived. We turned these in, and were doing New Equipment Training on M-3 CFVs when we were alerted to DEPLOY to Saudi Arabia. Saddam acting up in Iraq after the first war in 1991. While the Line Companies packed and shipped out, we continued training...cut through the chase, a day in the big simulator compound there at Ft Benning then straight out to the gunnery tables the next day, 0500 formation. Early firing tables completed, day and night portions, time for Bradley Table VIII, crew qualification. Flynn was a natural shooter, great with the switches, adjusting aim point after a sensing shot. I did well on my engagements, switches, and firing commands. Any mess-up or going over cost points. Driver Jack Olson did his part driving; ensuring the vehicle was never lacking, helped PROPERLY loading the ammo for the runs at the ammo upload area, called targets out etc. In a few lines I cannot express the necessity of a good driver, teamwork, and crew coordination. Tables in the Offence, Defense, NBC , troop, pRPG team, truck, or PC targets, various ranges and presentation angles. More on this later. Pleased to say that all went well before we packed up to go to Suadi, 1000 points awarded with 1000 possible.
Upon return, TRADOC said "that does not count" so we went back and finished NET then shot another full USR Gunnery. Same firing crew for me, same result!
Even BETTER kill times.
In the post that vanished, I was writing about my time at the BlackHorse. After individual crews qualified, we would then do a platoon size run at the MPRC (multi-purpose range complex) at Grafenwohr. We would seldom fight as a straight Cav Platoon with 6x CFVs. Third Plt Scouts and 4th Plt Tankers would form two Hunter-Killer teams. The engagement scenario was called SEVEN UP. Scouts would be forward, call 'enemy' targets as they were presented at decreasing ranges. Indirect (inert) rounds would be fired to get all our in-house assets into the fray. Often the indirect fires were to mask retrograde movement of the Scouts from Observation Positions to prepared Battle Positions. The idea here is the enemy Recon Patrols are eliminated by the Scout-called indirect or Scouts firing from their BPs...heavy stuff, the tanks, kept back. As criteria were met, the Tank leader (either the LT or the PSG) would move their tanks into their BPs. The grand finale of this was the opposition lead company-sized unit gets hit by Bradley and Tank fire....Tanks taking on the Opposition Armor and far targets, Bradleys taking on the near to far RPG TEAMS, troops, PCs and trucks. Quite the spectacle! We expected to fight at 1:4 odds
Thanks, I've been floating around here a few years on this site. Was at Lewis early 90-fall 91 then was detailed to Recruiting up by SEATAC airport and SouthCenter Mall. When I had the chance to come back fall of 1999, I jumped on it! ROTC OPS NCO then toe 3rd Bde, 1/14 CAV for the Initial Stryker Deployment, OIF 1.5. Retired APR 2006.
continuing from above
Single target on the offence, 10 seconds before you start losing points. A 'kill' requires three 25mm hits. Exposure times, hits required for a kill are all figured out by threat analysts, men in black. Technique here on the commander's engagement is a must; head one way to reach the sight eyepiece, right arm back to reach the commander's hand station. Left arm and hand used to steady yourself as best able. With the reticle on the target, one must give lead or reverse lead if not moving straight onto the target. Finger control, one shot with a blip of the trigger, adjust reticle on the target based on sensing, either a second single round or a 3-round burst (ROF is 450 rpm, literally sounds like boom, boom, boom run together. Favorite Gunnery memory was when I got the kill,kill,kill from the tower, called Cease Fire to complete the engagement (kill stops time clock also but you must play by the rules here). During the review/critique/scoring/what can you do better brief, saw the vid...hit with the sensing round, 3 hits with the three round burst, kill time 5 seconds.
Probably the finest gunner in the Cav, IMHO was SGT Donald Flynn. One unit had M-113A3s in the Scout Platoon (and the two other Scout Platoons in the Bde) when I arrived. We turned these in, and were doing New Equipment Training on M-3 CFVs when we were alerted to DEPLOY to Saudi Arabia. Saddam acting up in Iraq after the first war in 1991. While the Line Companies packed and shipped out, we continued training...cut through the chase, a day in the big simulator compound there at Ft Benning then straight out to the gunnery tables the next day, 0500 formation. Early firing tables completed, day and night portions, time for Bradley Table VIII, crew qualification. Flynn was a natural shooter, great with the switches, adjusting aim point after a sensing shot. I did well on my engagements, switches, and firing commands. Any mess-up or going over cost points. Driver Jack Olson did his part driving; ensuring the vehicle was never lacking, helped PROPERLY loading the ammo for the runs at the ammo upload area, called targets out etc. In a few lines I cannot express the necessity of a good driver, teamwork, and crew coordination. Tables in the Offence, Defense, NBC , troop, pRPG team, truck, or PC targets, various ranges and presentation angles. More on this later. Pleased to say that all went well before we packed up to go to Suadi, 1000 points awarded with 1000 possible.
Upon return, TRADOC said "that does not count" so we went back and finished NET then shot another full USR Gunnery. Same firing crew for me, same result!
Even BETTER kill times.
In the post that vanished, I was writing about my time at the BlackHorse. After individual crews qualified, we would then do a platoon size run at the MPRC (multi-purpose range complex) at Grafenwohr. We would seldom fight as a straight Cav Platoon with 6x CFVs. Third Plt Scouts and 4th Plt Tankers would form two Hunter-Killer teams. The engagement scenario was called SEVEN UP. Scouts would be forward, call 'enemy' targets as they were presented at decreasing ranges. Indirect (inert) rounds would be fired to get all our in-house assets into the fray. Often the indirect fires were to mask retrograde movement of the Scouts from Observation Positions to prepared Battle Positions. The idea here is the enemy Recon Patrols are eliminated by the Scout-called indirect or Scouts firing from their BPs...heavy stuff, the tanks, kept back. As criteria were met, the Tank leader (either the LT or the PSG) would move their tanks into their BPs. The grand finale of this was the opposition lead company-sized unit gets hit by Bradley and Tank fire....Tanks taking on the Opposition Armor and far targets, Bradleys taking on the near to far RPG TEAMS, troops, PCs and trucks. Quite the spectacle! We expected to fight at 1:4 odds
kettbo
Senior Airman
After the SEVEN UP, some larger exercises were undertaken at Range 301....six lanes in North, 6 in the Center, 6 in the South
All usually went well, Scouts doing their stuff downrange, retrograde movement, target destroyed in the kill zone. One night, things did NOT go well.
A crew was changed (improper thing to change), the tank fired not down 301 Center where it was on, but into 301 SOUTH where M-3s were moving back towards them. The tank fired a HEAT training round at one and hit Bradley, reloaded, shot and hit a second Bradley, reloaded, re-engaged and hit the 1st Bradley.
Luckily, nobody was seriously hurt on CFV #1 but it caught fire, burned to the ground, ammo onboard exploded through the night. We were he next range over, saw the smoke from the fire, heard the ammo blow. The 2nd CFV lost its driver instantly, the other crewmen were more or less OK.
Months later, I had business at Grafenwohr Range Control. There was a picture there of the CFV that burned down, not much left. Down the street at Vilseck we swapped out our old M-3s for a later upgraded version. Noticed a CFV in a bay across the way getting the driver area and under hood pressure-washed. No biggie really until we noticed that on the user's cap was shiny metal....officer!....not blacked-out rank or sew-on like NCO/Enlisted. Hmmm, binoculars were present, observed the guy doing the washing was a Captain. When he and whoever else moved away/took a break, a few of us wandered over there for a look see. Wouldn't you know it, it was the other Bradley from that night, penetration still present just behind where the driver's head would be.
In Germany, 2-3 month-long Border tours, Grafenwohr Gunnery for a month twice a year, Hohenfels for a month of Maneuver combat, REFORGER for a few weeks. If not on gunnery you were always training for it. NCOs were tasked to EVALUATE other firing units after a special course; tankers on course, Scouts another. I was away from my bunk at Daley Barracks nearly 380 days my first year. At home station, seemed an alert per week. More on this another time too.
addl info
My first gunnery in Germany, I was CFV gunner for Lt Milner. I was the FNG, didn't have the job until the LT's gunner's wife had complications at the hospital....he stayed back, I was a last minute replacement, right there at the pre-deployment briefing. The Troop Cdr Dan Zajac asked me if I had gunner experience...Roger. Could I qualify? ...Sir, I'll shoot Distinguished! Did so just two weeks later. After the Scout tables were done, our Tankers in 2nd and 4th Plt were at the Tank Ranges. I was 'invited' by CPT Z to fill a vacant loader spot on Green 1, LT Elliot's tank. I can tell you that even the Early Abrams were Kick Ass. Loading on a moving tank is not too bad... not very loud when it shoot inside....big recoil is spectacular. Ready rounds for the Abrams are in the bustle behind the loader, projectile facing to the rear. Knee the switch and the blast door opens, round type is black markered on the base of the round. Detent pushed, round grabbed out and base downward, nose rotated over and the projectile rammed into the breach, arm/safety gate swung to ARM, Loader announces UP! With one in the tube, once the first one is gone, 2nd round can follow in roughly 8 seconds, then a third. Yes, the wind CAN whistle down your throat while doing this. This was the M-1 with the 105. We soon traded these in and got M1A1 with the 120mm
We were highly trained, highly motivated. Failure would mean death, capture, or being cut-off and fending for oneself until getting back to a friendly area. We knew which farms had Diesel Fuel and how much, just for that contingency. Our battle uniform was MOPP 2, NBC SUIT worn, mask and such carried. Trained lots of NBC situations.
All usually went well, Scouts doing their stuff downrange, retrograde movement, target destroyed in the kill zone. One night, things did NOT go well.
A crew was changed (improper thing to change), the tank fired not down 301 Center where it was on, but into 301 SOUTH where M-3s were moving back towards them. The tank fired a HEAT training round at one and hit Bradley, reloaded, shot and hit a second Bradley, reloaded, re-engaged and hit the 1st Bradley.
Luckily, nobody was seriously hurt on CFV #1 but it caught fire, burned to the ground, ammo onboard exploded through the night. We were he next range over, saw the smoke from the fire, heard the ammo blow. The 2nd CFV lost its driver instantly, the other crewmen were more or less OK.
Months later, I had business at Grafenwohr Range Control. There was a picture there of the CFV that burned down, not much left. Down the street at Vilseck we swapped out our old M-3s for a later upgraded version. Noticed a CFV in a bay across the way getting the driver area and under hood pressure-washed. No biggie really until we noticed that on the user's cap was shiny metal....officer!....not blacked-out rank or sew-on like NCO/Enlisted. Hmmm, binoculars were present, observed the guy doing the washing was a Captain. When he and whoever else moved away/took a break, a few of us wandered over there for a look see. Wouldn't you know it, it was the other Bradley from that night, penetration still present just behind where the driver's head would be.
In Germany, 2-3 month-long Border tours, Grafenwohr Gunnery for a month twice a year, Hohenfels for a month of Maneuver combat, REFORGER for a few weeks. If not on gunnery you were always training for it. NCOs were tasked to EVALUATE other firing units after a special course; tankers on course, Scouts another. I was away from my bunk at Daley Barracks nearly 380 days my first year. At home station, seemed an alert per week. More on this another time too.
addl info
My first gunnery in Germany, I was CFV gunner for Lt Milner. I was the FNG, didn't have the job until the LT's gunner's wife had complications at the hospital....he stayed back, I was a last minute replacement, right there at the pre-deployment briefing. The Troop Cdr Dan Zajac asked me if I had gunner experience...Roger. Could I qualify? ...Sir, I'll shoot Distinguished! Did so just two weeks later. After the Scout tables were done, our Tankers in 2nd and 4th Plt were at the Tank Ranges. I was 'invited' by CPT Z to fill a vacant loader spot on Green 1, LT Elliot's tank. I can tell you that even the Early Abrams were Kick Ass. Loading on a moving tank is not too bad... not very loud when it shoot inside....big recoil is spectacular. Ready rounds for the Abrams are in the bustle behind the loader, projectile facing to the rear. Knee the switch and the blast door opens, round type is black markered on the base of the round. Detent pushed, round grabbed out and base downward, nose rotated over and the projectile rammed into the breach, arm/safety gate swung to ARM, Loader announces UP! With one in the tube, once the first one is gone, 2nd round can follow in roughly 8 seconds, then a third. Yes, the wind CAN whistle down your throat while doing this. This was the M-1 with the 105. We soon traded these in and got M1A1 with the 120mm
We were highly trained, highly motivated. Failure would mean death, capture, or being cut-off and fending for oneself until getting back to a friendly area. We knew which farms had Diesel Fuel and how much, just for that contingency. Our battle uniform was MOPP 2, NBC SUIT worn, mask and such carried. Trained lots of NBC situations.
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kettbo
Senior Airman
back of a M-3 CFV circa 1989 via Craig Caldwell.
Weighted missile sim rounds for loading drills
Lots and lots of stowage for ammo compared to the Infantry versions
Weighted missile sim rounds for loading drills
Lots and lots of stowage for ammo compared to the Infantry versions
vinnye
Senior Airman
Well I am voting for the Centurion, it was a very good tank right from the end of WWII until it was replaced many years and Mark numbers later.
It was a good compromise of firepower, maneuverability, protection, had a gun stabiliser fitted that allowed it to fire on the move, reliable engine and transmission, and proved itself in combat on several occasions in different theatres against whatever opposition was fielded against it. A real cold war warrior!
It was a good compromise of firepower, maneuverability, protection, had a gun stabiliser fitted that allowed it to fire on the move, reliable engine and transmission, and proved itself in combat on several occasions in different theatres against whatever opposition was fielded against it. A real cold war warrior!
sgtleehead
Airman
Centurion - Greatest tank design ever bar none. First true MBT. More influential then any other tank in relation to the current tank designs and philosophy - from the outset it had most things right. Fought more successfully in more wars than any other tank design in history - 6 day war, Yom kippur war, Indian/Pakistan war, Vietnam war. In each war it emerged every time as the best tank on any side. It only started to be eclipsed in the 80's but in its upgraded form could still be useful to some nations even today due to its excellent dimensions and intrinsic basic design. It influenced the Israel's in their tank designs - even the Merkava in its initial form used some Centurion parts and owes some of its design and conception to the Centurion. It had virtually everything going for it.
With the exception of the Challenger family or Merkava family - no tank comes close. And even those two designs haven't been as successful - yet.
With the exception of the Challenger family or Merkava family - no tank comes close. And even those two designs haven't been as successful - yet.
swampyankee
Chief Master Sergeant
- 4,031
- Jun 25, 2013
Why not? The M1, Leopard, and Leopard 2 all served during the Cold War.
Overall, I'd say that it would be a toss-up between the M1 and the Leopard 2. If you want to leave out those two, that's fine, but it strikes me as a somewhat artificial exclusion, like asking what the best battleship of WW2 was, but exclude the Yamato, the Iowa, and the Tirpitz.
Leaving out all the light tanks and the M103 (which even the US Army didn't seem to like), I think one could make a case for the M60 (which was just an evolutionary development of the M47), the Centurion (the last variants of which probably had as much in common with the first as the M60 had with the M47), the Leopard, the Strv103, and the T-55. I'm USian, so I'll vote with my flag: M60.
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parsifal
Colonel
This is a link to a site that i found relating to the Australian Army use of the centurion, and a project that restored one example at the tank training ground at Pucka Vic
"An ANZAC ARV" by Paul D. Handel
Intersting read and good pics of the centurion in the jungle.
Mobility wise, the Centurion was one of the best tanks around in the Australian Army's view
"An ANZAC ARV" by Paul D. Handel
Intersting read and good pics of the centurion in the jungle.
Mobility wise, the Centurion was one of the best tanks around in the Australian Army's view
sgtleehead
Airman
M60 - Israel Nickname - Ronson. Hydraulic fluid for turret traverse burned too easily. Too tall, Poor internal sub-division, Mediocre armour. Mediocre tank.
Leopard 1 - Virtually made of tissue paper. Armour protection only to lesser rounds. Easily destroyed by anything with a gun above 30mm so even a technical, a datsun! with a big enough gun could see one off. Some 23mm would penetrate the side armour.
Leopard 2 - sold fantastically - Never tested properly tested in war with the exception of limited conflicts!. Rejected by the British as poorly armored and too light a construction in the chassis.
Abrams - Oh dear. Can of worms this one. Great tank in a lot of respects. Really great. However - Pity about the amour. Bit of a Panther. Watch the (numerous) videos for the Gulf conflicts of burning Abrams taken out by handheld and just about anything else around the side and arse. Propensity to burn on the rear made worse by a turbine with a steamingly hot engine deck I wonder. Great up front but armour protection is much more than that. The Israels understood with the Merkava. Very poor loss level vs Challenger.
DonL
Banned
That's why the next upgrad of the Challenger2 will get a MTU engine and from all I haver heard the Rheinmetall 120-mm-Glattrohrkanone.
Also how many countries are equiped with the challenger2 compare to the Leopard 2?
That's absolutely why the Leopard2 is this poorly armored and had no fighting power?!
Also how many countries are equiped with the challenger2 compare to the Leopard 2?
That's absolutely why the Leopard2 is this poorly armored and had no fighting power?!
parsifal
Colonel
That doesnt ring true for me. The RAAC had its issues with the Leopard, but the level of protection was not one of them. The Australian Army was not happy with the MG3 or the targetting system. Later 105mm was acknowledged as approaching obsolescence, but the decision to upgrade to the M1 Abrams delayed the gun upgrade. in the end the Australian Government took the very questionable decision for its new abrams to retain the 105, which i think was a mistake.
But as to the issue of protection, well, admittedly Leopard Is dont have chobham or any other armour protection systems, but that is still on apar with the Centurions and Chieftains. The tank is a first generation cold war tank, and in the context of that, its armouring scheme was adequate...not brilliant, but still quite good
Leopard AS1 Main Battle Tank Part One by Paul D. Handel
Leopard AS1 Main Battle Tank Part Two by Paul D. Handel
Leopard AS1 Part Three - Bridgelayer and Armoured Recovery Vehicle by Paul D. Handel
Leopard AS1 Part Four - Markings and Oddities by Paul D. Handel
Jabberwocky
Staff Sergeant
Leopard 1s, particularly the pre-add on spaced armour variants, were very thinly skinned. Mobility was seen as the key defensive asset, not armour. Their frontal armour was generally designed to defeat anything up to the Soviet 85 mm AT gun beyond about 1000 m and more mobile threats like the
In no way should the armour of the early Leopards be considered equivalent to Chieftan. Even the period appropriate Centurion had a much thicker glacis and turret armour.
Leopard 1 to 1A5 had about 140 mm LoS armour thickness on the glacis, 105 mm LoS for the mantlet and 52 mm (without bolt on armour) for the front of the turret.
In comparison, the Chieftain I had about 185 LoS thickness on the glacis, 240-280 LoS for the mantle and about 175 mm LoS for the front of the turret. Later Chieftains went heavier still. Challenger I heavier than that.
Glider
Captain
I would certainly agree that the Leopard I was a cold war tank but don't understand the statement that the 105mm was approaching obsolescence. The Leopard 1 and first versions of the M1 and Merkava all had the 105mm. So I must be misreading something if the 105 on the Centurion was out of date but the 105 on the Leopard wasn't.
If we are talking about rangefinders then before the laser rangefinder there wasn't a perfect solution. The ranging MG was quick but obviously gave away your position. The system used on the M60 was slow and in a closer range combat situation or one in built up areas was of little use. The Israeli army trained their crews to ignore the rangefinder and would fire three shells in quick succession at three pre-set angles. The ballistics of the 105 were such that at (then) normal combat ranges a hit was almost guaranteed if on the flat. The tank commander would order which long, medium or short to fire first and there was a very good chance of a first round hit. Israeli Centurions with the 105mm didn't have the ranging mg fitted.
If we are talking about rangefinders then before the laser rangefinder there wasn't a perfect solution. The ranging MG was quick but obviously gave away your position. The system used on the M60 was slow and in a closer range combat situation or one in built up areas was of little use. The Israeli army trained their crews to ignore the rangefinder and would fire three shells in quick succession at three pre-set angles. The ballistics of the 105 were such that at (then) normal combat ranges a hit was almost guaranteed if on the flat. The tank commander would order which long, medium or short to fire first and there was a very good chance of a first round hit. Israeli Centurions with the 105mm didn't have the ranging mg fitted.
