Best ISA's?

Glider · Sep 27, 2005

If you can survive two tours mainly on point, then I suggest nothing else is to much of a problem either.

Of the two I have only fired the SLR. However I was a little young at the time and to be honest, apart from prone, it was a bit too much for me.

Nonskimmer · Sep 27, 2005

I was joking about the dishes. I do that sometimes. Bad habit.

Glider · Sep 27, 2005

I know you were.

Medvedya · Sep 27, 2005

I know I'm somewhat biased in the way C.C is to all things Italian, but I'm astonished that nobody has mentioned the PPSh 41.

Coming in with a cyclic rate of 900 rpm and a big fat drum of 71 or curved mag of 35 7.62 rounds, you could also interchange it with the .30 Mauser bullet.

Cheap and simple to make, and you could show a 5 year old how to strip and reassemble it.

In short, when you absolutely, positively, have to empty a room of unwanted guests in under 5 seconds, then it's yer boy.

lesofprimus · Sep 27, 2005

I was never impressed with the 5.56 or the M-16.... As a SEAL, most of our situations were short range.... I preferred the MP5 over the M-16.... "Unofficially", I carried an AK-47 more than I did any other weapon, excluding the stubby 12 gauge I cut down...

Funny thing about usin a weapon that the enemy uses... Theres always spare ammo around...

I do like the SLR over the M-16, but the new M-4A1 series has many uses the M-16 couldnt task out easily.... Some of my buddies like the M-4 SOPMOD package more so than any other weapon....

I still dont think the 5.56mm round has enough stopping power for close quarter drill.....

Nonskimmer · Sep 27, 2005

Just out of curiosity les, how does the AK-47 compare to the SLR? I mean I imagine it's probably not quite as awkward, where the SLR has such a long barrel, but is it tougher, more accurate, less accurate (probably a bit less)? Those sorts of things. It looks pretty robust.
Obviously I've never handled one. Not even at the range.

lesofprimus · Sep 27, 2005

The SLR is a fine weapon and probably a better weapon... But my AK never jammed, never misfired, never let me down... Not quite as accurate as the SLR at distance, but in close, the AK matched it.... I could go swimming with it and crawl through the surf, and never worried about it not functioning properly....

It could take much more punishment than any other weapon I used with any sort of frequency.... I wouldnt want to drop my SLR from 25 feet.... I could care less if I dropped my AK...

Nonskimmer · Sep 27, 2005

Right on.

DerAdlerIstGelandet · Sep 28, 2005

She may be old but I love my trusty M-60D. They are telling me though that very soon I am a getting 240G. I dont know if I want to trade. Maybe if I get to fire it at aerial gunnery next month I might change my mind. My M-60D never let me down though, she is a great gun.

schwarzpanzer · Sep 28, 2005

That's weird, I thought you'd have the G3A3 or the G36 DerAdler?

I've heard baad things about the M60 (for infantry use), the MG3 is a lot better apparently. 8)

I suppose the M60 is like the MG34 then, fine in a vehicle?

You should like the 240G, the SAS seem to love it!

The M60 makes a great noise though! 8)

SLR vs M16:

It's also a hell of a lot easier to disassemble and clean, which is a nice plus.

You're kidding me??

I still dont think the 5.56mm round has enough stopping power for close quarter drill.....

I heard the non-NATO (SS109) 5.56 is great close range.

how does the AK-47 compare to the SLR?

From what I've heard the SLR = 800m range (I know a sniper who used this weapon) the AK about 400m.

I'm astonished that nobody has mentioned the PPSh 41.

It's loud and has a huge flash, but is accurate and has a high muzzle velocity.

It's very low lethality is a big negative point.

The Thompson M1928A1 is great there; 800rpm, accurate and holds 20, 50 or even 100 .45's! 8)

Glider · Sep 28, 2005

Schwar
Sorry but you would be lucky to hit the target at 800m with an SLR. Thee is a good reason why the SLR wasn't used as a snipers rifle by the British. It was because there were better rifles for that job. The effective range for an SLR was around 600m and that took a well trained person to achieve that as the iron sights were not accurate at that range.

DerAlder. You may be interested to know that the US Army tested the FN rifle in the late 50's but decided that the M14 was a better weapon. At the time most people suspected that the NIH syndrome had cut in.

schwarzpanzer · Sep 28, 2005

Well, he was a succesful sniper (or sharpshooter?) and that's what he used!

There were SUIT (Trilux) sights and I heard that SUSAT sights were tried on a few.

I think he might have had a telescopic, I don't like asking anything like that though.

There were a few tricks with the SLR, captured Argentinian ones had folding stocks and it could take the L4 (Bren) 30-round magazine. 8)

NIH syndrome

Sorry, what is that? Is it the 'not made here' thing?

The M14 wasn't that bad really? Neither was the SMLE/No.4 IMHO. 8)

Glider · Sep 29, 2005

I am not qualified to say how good or bad the M14 was. I do know that the FN was bought by a large number of countries (I think it was 72) and was built in a number of others. The M14 wasn't built in any other country (to the best of my knowledge) and was given away in military assistance programmes. That alone is a strong indication as to which was better. Due to this I believe that the USA made the wrong call in choosing the M14 over the FN in the early 50's.
Finally when the M14 went into action it was found wanting in a number of respects and was replaced by the M16. Whereas the FN lasted a lot longer in production and service across the world.
As you know the British and the Argentines both used the FN/SLR in the early 80's eighteen years after the M14 had been taken out of production.

NIH = Not Invented Here. Often found in land to the West of the Atlantic. Tends to break out when money is involved.
Prime Example Concorde. USA like other countries decide to build similar aircraft. USA cannot do it, and suddenly decide that noise is an issue. Only recorded time when Republican congressmen decide that an environmental issue is important. Does anyone seriously believe that if Concorde had been built by Boeing that noise pollution would have become an issue.

schwarzpanzer · Sep 29, 2005

I suppose for soldiers trained to use the Garand, the M14 made sense?

Besides IIRC it used a lot of the Garands tooling in it's manufacture?

I think the Hk G3 maybe better than the FN?

- It was also popular.

Finally when the M14 went into action it was found wanting in a number of respects and was replaced by the M16.

Yes but the M16 was full auto, no competitor other than the AK?

The StG44 was used in Africa for a while and was reportedly favoured over the AK SLR!

As you know the British and the Argentines both used the FN/SLR in the early 80's eighteen years after the M14 had been taken out of production.

Yes but there were never enough M16's (and those were unreliable) and as for the SA80, well...

NIH = Not Invented Here.

Cheers Glider, I wasn't far off!

I don't know why they bother, the Garand was Canadian, the M9-Italian, the Mk23 MP5-German, the L105mm-UK etc...

I understand the M14 point though (above)

USA cannot do it, and suddenly decide that noise is an issue

Obviously jealous , better than the French though; they disallowed Mini Cooper Rally win due to 'too many lights'

Does anyone seriously believe that if Concorde had been built by Boeing that noise pollution would have become an issue.

It was in England, flying supersonic over land was eventually banned.

Have you seen that new low-noise passenger jet concept from Cambridge University Glider?

I don't usually like modern British designs, much less ones from Uni, but this seems excellent! 8)

Soren · Sep 29, 2005

Bolt action rifle:
The Enfield Mk.4, because it carries 10 rounds and was atleast as accurate as any other rifle with open sights out to 500y. (Second would be the K98k simply because of its great accuracy and reliabillity)

Semi automatic rifle:
M1 Garrand, cause it was reliable and accurate.

Assault rifle:
The STG-44, as it was reliable, accurate at medium ranges, and fast firing.

Sniper rifle:
Karabiner 98K with 6X zoom ZF scope, the most accurate rifle to see service during ww2.

SMG:
Thompson "Tommygun", the best quality SMG of ww2 while reliable and fast firing.

LMG
Bren gun, as it was reliable, accurate, and featured good sized clips.

MG:
MG42, very reliable, accurate on tripod, and very fast firing. (1500-1800rpm)

Glider · Sep 30, 2005

The only ones I would disagree with are
The Sniper Rifle where the LEE Enfield 4 I believe to have the edge.
I don't like the Thompson as it had a problem with the mussle rising and the mag was on the small side.

Soren · Sep 30, 2005

Glider said:
The only ones I would disagree with are
The Sniper Rifle where the LEE Enfield 4 I believe to have the edge.

I don't see how, as the ZF scope on the K98k has better magnifying abillity and was of better quality than its British counterpart.

The K98k was also in itself a more accurate rifle than the LEE Enfield 4, firing a 200gr boat-tailed IS projectile at a MV of 2,624 fps, whereas the Enfield Mk.4 would propel its 170gr boat-tailed projectile at a MV of 2,444 fps. (The popular 2,477 fps figure for the German IS round originates from pre-war underpowered commercial 8mm Winchester ammunition)

And as we both know, the velocity and weight of the projectile is top priority in achieving accuracy.

Glider said:
I don't like the Thompson as it had a problem with the mussle rising and the mag was on the small side.

Well I did say "Tommygun", which refers to the model some British and Australian units carried, and 'It' featured a 50-100 round drum aswell as a muzzle gas regulator.

Nonskimmer · Sep 30, 2005

The term "Tommy gun" refers to Thompson sub-machine guns of all models, right from the M1921 to the M1A1, be they .45 calibre or 9mm. They were used by some Canadian units too. Mostly the M1928 model I believe. In addition to the various sized drum magazines, there were 20 and 30 round box magazines available as well. It seemed that the British, Australian, and Canadian troops who used them initially opted for the 20 round mags, for whatever reason. Perhaps they were the only size available at that time? I don't really know.

Soren · Sep 30, 2005

Nonskimmer said:
The term "Tommy gun" refers to Thompson sub-machine guns of all models. .

Normally when talking to gun-enthusiasts, the term "Tommygun" makes them think "M1928-A1", as this was the first model to be handed this name. (Thats my experience atleast)

However your right, I should have been more specific and written M1928-A1 instead.

Nonskimmer said:
They were used by some Canadian units too.

Yes your right, I forgot the Canadian units.

In addition to the various sized drum magazines, there were 20 and 30 round box magazines available as well. It seemed that the British, Australian, and Canadian troops who used them initially opted for the 20 round mags, for whatever reason. Perhaps they were the only size available at that time? I don't really know

According to what I've heard the 30 round drum was the normal pick, however this will obviously vary from man to man. And I don't specifically know how many 20 round drums where handed out to the units compared to 30 or 50 round drums, so...

Glider · Oct 1, 2005

Sorren The British started with the drum mag's for the Thompson as we wanted maximum firepower for the squad. Howeve they were soon dropped as the rounds rattled around inside the drum and you could be heard from some distance.
The K98 wasn't more accurate than the sniper versions of the Lee Enfield 4, and its a popular misconception that the weight of the bullet and mv is top priority in accuracy. There are a number of other factors of equal importance.
The Lee Enfield stayed in service until the 1980's as the British snipers rifle and in civilian long range shooting competitions only started to be replaced in the 90's with free floating designs.
Amongst collectors the Mk 4 sniper is seen as a classic design and good examples cost a serious amount of money.
As recently as 2000 there was a shooting competition at Bisley on the long ranges out to 1.200 yards. Militery teams from the NATO armies took part as did a team of civilians using the Lee Enfield. The civilain team came fifth out of I think it was nine teams. The accuracy of the Lee Enfield is in no doubt.

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