Lightning Guy
Master Sergeant
- 2,511
- Apr 29, 2004
It should also be noted that, the opinions of Hitler notwithstanding, Germany had a much greater need for fighters than bombers at the time these jets were coming into service.
Best Jet of WW2?
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the lancaster kicks ass
Major General
- 19,937
- Dec 20, 2003
yes, the germans didn't really bomb in the west after '41 did he??
Erich
the old Sage
yes Lanc, during the 44-45 battles for the Ardenne.
der Führer could not rid his mind of having a Luftwaffe bomber somewhat on par with the US/RAF. thus the experimentation of the 4 engine prototypes almost till war's end but then he saw the need for huge jet engines equipping small lighter bombers, but more of them, to attack England and even the US. And what better way to proivide escort to these jet bombers than to use updaed versions of the Me 262 and Focke Wulf testing a/c..................all Luft 46 anyway
der Führer could not rid his mind of having a Luftwaffe bomber somewhat on par with the US/RAF. thus the experimentation of the 4 engine prototypes almost till war's end but then he saw the need for huge jet engines equipping small lighter bombers, but more of them, to attack England and even the US. And what better way to proivide escort to these jet bombers than to use updaed versions of the Me 262 and Focke Wulf testing a/c..................all Luft 46 anyway
plan_D said:
I agree with the first sentence here, but definitely not the second. The poll is which was the best jet of WWII. Regardless of its situation, in my opinion the Arado 234 was WWII's 'best jet'. The Meteor would have been an asset, yes, but I somehow don't see it comparing very favourably against Ta-152s or Me 262s - the jets' main advantage was performance, and the early Meteors (like I said, up 'til the F.III) didn't have much of a performance advantage over the best prop-fighters.
But yeah, back to my point, just because an aircraft is 'most useful' in a certain situation doesn't mean it was the most effective type. The Fw 200 Condor was 'more useful' than the '109s/ '190s during the Battle of the Atlantic, but that doesn't make it a 'more effective' aircraft.
Erich
the old Sage
Friend not sure if you can access older books, but try and find a copy of Jeff Ethell/Alfred Prices German Jets in combat, 1979, Janes Publishing. maybe some sort of interlibrary loan can help ? pages of the Ar 234 on 74-99. Me 262 covered on pages 8-72. Although outdated still a neat classic work.
didn't Monogram produce one on the Ar 234 recently ? A beautiful looking jet and a smart performer.
hth
Erich ~
didn't Monogram produce one on the Ar 234 recently ? A beautiful looking jet and a smart performer.
hth
Erich ~
Lightning Guy
Master Sergeant
- 2,511
- Apr 29, 2004
Well, if you wanna talk simply about 'best jet' the 262 easily out performs the Ar 234. And I think your comparison of the Fw 200 with the 109 and 190 is rather unfair, unless you are wanting to argue that they 109 and 190 made 'effective' patrol aircraft.
Well that's what I'm trying to say - saying the Me 262 was a more effective aircraft because it was more useful doesn't make sense. The Ar 234 was a bomber, the '262 a fighter - you can't say that the 262 was more 'effective' just because Germany happened to need fighters more than bombers, you can only say it was more 'useful'. In the same way you can't say that the Condor was more 'effective' than the single-engined types just because it was a patrol aircraft in the Atlantic, but it was definitely more 'useful' in that role.
Oh, and as I've said, I think the '234 was the 'best jet' because (in my opinion) it was more capable of performing its job well than the '262. It's a very close run thing and I must admit that the only thing that really decides it for me relates to the engines. The Jumo 004s, when treated like a fighter engine (i.e. run at high power for extended periods, frequently having their throttle settings changed) had a very short running life (about 10hrs) that drastically reduced the effectiveness of the Messerschmitt Me 262 as a fighter. In the Arado the 004s were handled very carefully and gently by default - it was, after all, a bomber/ recce plane. This lead to increased servicability, longer engine llifespans, and therefore a more effective bomber than the '262 was a fighter.
Never mind, I'm just being pedantic. I get most of my details from Alfred Price's 'The Last Year Of The Luftwaffe', but I will try and get hold of a copy of that book Erich, thanks.
Oh, and as I've said, I think the '234 was the 'best jet' because (in my opinion) it was more capable of performing its job well than the '262. It's a very close run thing and I must admit that the only thing that really decides it for me relates to the engines. The Jumo 004s, when treated like a fighter engine (i.e. run at high power for extended periods, frequently having their throttle settings changed) had a very short running life (about 10hrs) that drastically reduced the effectiveness of the Messerschmitt Me 262 as a fighter. In the Arado the 004s were handled very carefully and gently by default - it was, after all, a bomber/ recce plane. This lead to increased servicability, longer engine llifespans, and therefore a more effective bomber than the '262 was a fighter.
Never mind, I'm just being pedantic. I get most of my details from Alfred Price's 'The Last Year Of The Luftwaffe', but I will try and get hold of a copy of that book Erich, thanks.
Erich
the old Sage
you may also want to check and type in Ar 234 books in your search engines and see what comes up. Granted in late war in April of 45 there were no more than 25 Ar 234's in service primarily due to the dwindling of special fuels and the forcement of confined airspace and airfields because of Allied/soviet pressure. but again the 234 units did their job till the last........... i.e. III./KG 76 and the small recon units
E ~
E ~
Erich
the old Sage
Thanks Erich - the bit of the book I was mainly referring to was that concerning the 5th and 7th prototypes sent to France, the first mission being flown by Erich Sommer on August 2nd over the Cherbourg peninsula. Over the next three weeks he and Horst Gotz flew 13 recconnaissance flights, bringing the German generals detailed information of Allied forces behind the front line for the first time since the invasion. Unfortunately, by now all the thousands of photos brought back by the Arados did was provide a detailed picture of a battle already lost...
It's interesting to note that the Arados appear to have completely escaped Allied notice as they went about their business in this period - surely the highest compliment that can be paid to a recce pilot? 8)
It's interesting to note that the Arados appear to have completely escaped Allied notice as they went about their business in this period - surely the highest compliment that can be paid to a recce pilot? 8)
Or that the Allies didn't care that the enemy was taking pictures of them, as they had already won.
The Me-262 was the more effective in the war, this does not mean it's better. More damage done by the Me-262 means its more effective. The Fw-200 would have been more effective for the Battle of Atlantic but still not more effective overall than the 109 in the WHOLE war effort.
When two aircraft are of different types you can't compare their ability, but you can compare their effect on the war effort of that nation, and the Me-262 was more effective because it was needed more.
The Me-262 was the more effective in the war, this does not mean it's better. More damage done by the Me-262 means its more effective. The Fw-200 would have been more effective for the Battle of Atlantic but still not more effective overall than the 109 in the WHOLE war effort.
When two aircraft are of different types you can't compare their ability, but you can compare their effect on the war effort of that nation, and the Me-262 was more effective because it was needed more.
Fair point, but if the Allies knew they were photographing it would appear in their records somewhere - they wouldn't omit those observations simply because they didn't care. Alfred Price did a thorough search through Allied documents of the time and there is no mention made of the high-flying Arados, or any Arados for that matter until a good couple of months later. The same is almost true for the few Me 262A-2 Sturmvogels that took part in the battle in Normandy, but that is a bad thing that reflects how little damage they did...
T'would have been interesting to see how the Arado fared as a night-fighter - it might have been better than the '262 in that respect (better range, weapons capacity etc.) 8)
T'would have been interesting to see how the Arado fared as a night-fighter - it might have been better than the '262 in that respect (better range, weapons capacity etc.)
8)
Erich
the old Sage
I think I am taking the bait here eh ? 8)
no kills reported from nahctkommando Bonow. In fact all there are remaining is a couple of strange looking profiles. Plenty of drawings of what-ifs. Kurt Welter of Me 262 night fighter fame tested an Ar 234 but was blinded by searchlights and glare from burning buildings on one test mission of the Ar 234 as a comprable jet along side the 262 arsenal. His findings were that there had to be some sort of anti-dazzle screens fitted or the inside of the swindows painted black. Also the need of some sort of forward radar fitting and place for a radar operator. Again this was to be developed for later in 1945 with AI radar in a protected nose fitting and supplemental armament of 4 weapons in a lower fuselage gondola instead of two 2cm weapons installed. I'll do a search for the article/profiles that were sent to me from Deutschland. In any case we have some materials on this night fighter potential in our Moskito-jagd book............
v/r
E ~
no kills reported from nahctkommando Bonow. In fact all there are remaining is a couple of strange looking profiles. Plenty of drawings of what-ifs. Kurt Welter of Me 262 night fighter fame tested an Ar 234 but was blinded by searchlights and glare from burning buildings on one test mission of the Ar 234 as a comprable jet along side the 262 arsenal. His findings were that there had to be some sort of anti-dazzle screens fitted or the inside of the swindows painted black. Also the need of some sort of forward radar fitting and place for a radar operator. Again this was to be developed for later in 1945 with AI radar in a protected nose fitting and supplemental armament of 4 weapons in a lower fuselage gondola instead of two 2cm weapons installed. I'll do a search for the article/profiles that were sent to me from Deutschland. In any case we have some materials on this night fighter potential in our Moskito-jagd book............
v/r
E ~
the lancaster kicks ass
Major General
- 19,937
- Dec 20, 2003
sorry, i meant bombing britain...............
That's a good point Huckebein, it does mark a good recce plane if your enemy does not know of your operations.
No serious bombing raid happened after the 7th May 1941. They did carry on though, I believe the last one was in November, not including the probing raids made by the Fw-190s in 1942. Which the British Intelligence said was captured French Mohawks
No serious bombing raid happened after the 7th May 1941. They did carry on though, I believe the last one was in November, not including the probing raids made by the Fw-190s in 1942. Which the British Intelligence said was captured French Mohawks
the lancaster kicks ass
Major General
- 19,937
- Dec 20, 2003
why would the germans doom themself's to faliure by using french planes...................
cheddar cheese
Major General
*themselves
i dont know, why would the germans doom themselves to failure by using french planes?
i dont know, why would the germans doom themselves to failure by using french planes?
For a start the Mohawk isn't a French plane. They were bought by the French. Secondly, they weren't using the Mohawk, it was the Fw-190 but when the pilots reported a radial engined aicraft British intelligence said it was the Mohawk, when it was the Fw-190 which they had no clue about.
the lancaster kicks ass
Major General
- 19,937
- Dec 20, 2003
ah, thanks for clearing that up............
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