Best late armoured cruiser

[Vincenzo]

Just looking on armoured cruiser data so i want start this thread.
I put out all ship with 1211" guns as ACR also if so classified for theyr navy.
For memory i give a list of "modern" ACR
Minotaur (RN)
Blucher (german imperial navy)
Rurik (russian imperial navy)
Izumo (japanese imperial navy)
Sankt Georg (austrian-hungarian imperial navy)
Quinet (french navy)
San Giorgio (italian royal navy)
Tennessee (USN)

In speed Blucher it's the best (2/4 knots over the others, Rurik the badest with only 21 kts)

In weapon i'm for the trio Blucher, San Giorgio, Rurik (with a side 8 ~8", 4 10" and 4 7.5", 4 10" and 4 8")

In armour afaik there are not large different (Tennessee max 5" belt is the lowest, Sankt Georg with 210mm the highest, on deck the british afaik are the badest)

what you think?

 

[timshatz]

Blucher? First one that comes to mind. Probably others out there, but it was amongst the last built and thereby had to be somewhat good.

 

[Glider]

Blucher would be my choice from the list but its a little unfair as it was built to be the first German battlecruiser, not an armoured cruiser. At the time the Germans believed that the British BC's were going to be armed with the 9.2in gun. It was a major shock to find that they had 12in guns.

 

[renrich]

According to Janes 1914, Blucher is classified as an armored cruiser. With her speed and armor I would say she is head and shoulders above the rest. Minotaur would perhaps outgun Blucher but she would be 3 or 4 knots slower.

 

[Vincenzo]

According to Janes 1914, Blucher is classified as an armored cruiser. With her speed and armor I would say she is head and shoulders above the rest. Minotaur would perhaps outgun Blucher but she would be 3 or 4 knots slower.

afaik 2/3 knots only slower but also 5 km under ranged guns (19 km for 21 cm of Blucher and 14 km 9.2" 7.5" of Minotaur and for a slower ship it's hard close the range)

if i remember right the german don't use neither armoured or battle cruiser classification but only large cruiser

 

[renrich]

Janes is a British publication and I think that they classify ships according to their specs at least on forign nation ships.

 

[Vincenzo]

I've armour scheme of italian San Giorgio (and also of other italian cruiser) somebody have the armour scheme of the other cruisers?

San Giorgio has a belt from 50 mm to 200 mm in all ship lenght (50/60 mm only in the extreme side 180/200 central).
has many decks
"coperta" (italian name) deck 10mm but within the funnels 30+15mm (in the area called "ridotto corazzato")
"batteria" deck 10mm but out the funnels (included its) 25+10mm (in other words where there is not the coperta deck at 30+15)
"corridoio" deck 15+15mm but out the 10" towers 24mm
"paraschegge" within the 10" tower it's the "corridoio" deck, out the 10" towers 15+15mm
only in the bow there is the "castello" deck but it's not armoured

 

[Vincenzo]

saw nothing have info on armour schemes, i put some info on weaponry
Minotaur: 2*2 9.2" (380 lbs AP, MV 2890 fps, range 16200 yds, ROF low) Turrets (bow and stern). 10*1 7.5" (200 lbs AP, MV 2827 fps, range 14300 yds (late 15500 yds), ROF low) turrets (sides)
Blucher: 6*2 21 cm (238 lbs AP, MV ?, range 20900 yds ,ROF middle) Turrets (bow, stern, sides). 8*1 15 cm (100 lbs, MV 2740 fps, range ? (the old model has 15000, this was best), ROF high) casemates (sides)
Rurik: 2*2 10" (496 lbs AP, MV 2949 fps, range around 22000+ yds, ROF low) turrets (bow and stern). 4*2 8" (307 lbs SAP, MV2598 fps, range around 21000 yds, ROF low) turrets (sides)
Izumo 2*2 8" (250 lbs AP, MV 2480 fps, range 19700 yds) turrets (bow and stern). 14*1 6" (100 lbs, MV 2300 fps, range 10000 yds, ROF high) casemates&opened mounts (sides)
Sankt Georg 1*2 24 cm (309 lbs AP, 2263 fps, range 18500 yds (old ammos), ROF low) turret (bow). 1*1 19 cm (214 lbs AP, 2625 fps, range 21800 yds, ROF low) (stern). 4*1 19 cm casemates (sides). 4*15 cm (unknown data range 15000 yds) casemates (sides)
Quinet 2*2 194mm (197 lbs AP, 3100 fps, range ? but sure 20000+ yds, ROF low) turrets (stern and bow). 6*1 194mm turrets (sides). 4*1 194mm casemattes (sides (angles))
San Giorgio 2*2 10" (500 lbs AP, 2854 fps, range 27300 yds, ROF low) (bow and stern). 4*2 7.5" (200 lbs AP, 2835 fps, range 24000 yds, ROF low) turrets (sides)
Tennessee 2*2 10" (510 lbs AP, 2700 fps, range 20000 yds, ROF low) (bow and stern). 16*1 6" (105 lbs AP, 2800 fps, range 15000 yds, ROF high) casemates (sides).

 

[delcyros]

This comparison favours BLUCHER.
It was designed as a well protected (for the time) large cruiser. Only RURIK, BLUCHER and ST.GEORG are using reliable, hard capped APC ammo. This is a crucial advantage in the timeframe in question.
BLUCHER has speed, protection and firepower (more through range and volume of fire than punch).
It also has the most advanced firecontroll of any non english ship (IIRC the first ship in the IGN to be fitted with a heavy tripod mast and centralized firecontroll) and thus is the only ship on par with MINOTAUR in this regard.
As a matter of fact BLUCHER was used as a gunnery training ship for HIPPERs scouting forces.
Finally, it enjois a more stable propellant and better redundancy in hull design.
This is not really a well balanced comparison. Replacing BLUCHER with SCHARNHORST/GNEISENAU instead is likely to be more interesting. This would also resemble a contemporaneous comparison.

 

[Vincenzo]

for "time" question
Minotaur first laid down 1905 first launch 1906 completion 1908/1909
Blucher laid down 1907 launch 1908 completion 1909
(Scharnhorst first laid down 1904 first launch 1906 completion 1907/1908 )
Rurik laid down 1905 launch 1906 completion 1909
Izumo first laid down 1898 first launch 1898 completion 1900/1901 (tha Asamas were similar date 1897-1898-1899)
Sankt Georg laid down 1901 launch 1903 completion 1905
Quinet first laid down 1905 first launch 1907 completion 1911
San Giorgio first laid down 1905 first launch 1908 completion 1910/1911
Tennessee first laid down 1903 first launch 1904 completion 1906/1908

so the Blucher is not out timing the other cruisers, only the japanese are outime, too old this is for the choice the build all the capital ship with 12" and my opinion that a 12" armed ship is not a ACR.

 

[Vincenzo]

Delcyros i saw you've knowledge on naval side, have you info on armour scheme of this cruiser? or you know where i find it?
thank you

 

[Vincenzo]

It also has the most advanced firecontroll of any non english ship (IIRC the first ship in the IGN to be fitted with a heavy tripod mast and centralized firecontroll) and thus is the only ship on par with MINOTAUR in this regard.

please can you explain this point? you telling that other ACR have not centralized fire controll? so they firing in local controll for each turret?

 

[delcyros]

Delcyros i saw you've knowledge on naval side, have you info on armour scheme of this cruiser? or you know where i find it?
thank you

a quick search on the internet provided these pages with armour schemes and infor of the ships in question:
MINOTAUR-class:
HMS Drake (1899)
(scroll down on that page)
BLUCHER-class:
Armored Cruiser SMS Bluecher (1909)
SANKT GEORG-class:
Armored Cruiser Sankt Georg (1905)
QUINET-class:
Later French Armored Cruisers, 1902-1911Infos on amerc

Infos on american, japanese and russian ships are better found in books. Some may be found with google book search as well. Hope it helps.

ACR of this period usually did not possessed centralized firecontroll. Albeit all of them had some simple rangefinding equipment, the turret commander was still responsible for gunlaying and firing of the guns. Targets and rangeinformations were called down from the spotting top but there was no technical instrument like a follow the pointer gear or true director firing. These instruments were installed into english ships first. BLUCHER was the first non english ship to receive a follow the pointer gear and director tops.
Altough this is not a striking advantage at close range (where continous aim from the turret was much preferable) it made up for a difference in long range engagements.

 

[Vincenzo]

a quick search on the internet provided these pages with armour schemes and infor of the ships in question:
MINOTAUR-class:
HMS Drake (1899)
(scroll down on that page)
BLUCHER-class:
Armored Cruiser SMS Bluecher (1909)
SANKT GEORG-class:
Armored Cruiser Sankt Georg (1905)
QUINET-class:
Later French Armored Cruisers, 1902-1911Infos on amerc

Infos on american, japanese and russian ships are better found in books. Some may be found with google book search as well. Hope it helps.

ACR of this period usually did not possessed centralized firecontroll. Albeit all of them had some simple rangefinding equipment, the turret commander was still responsible for gunlaying and firing of the guns. Targets and rangeinformations were called down from the spotting top but there was no technical instrument like a follow the pointer gear or true director firing. These instruments were installed into english ships first. BLUCHER was the first non english ship to receive a follow the pointer gear and director tops.
Altough this is not a striking advantage at close range (where continous aim from the turret was much preferable) it made up for a difference in long range engagements.

thank you for the links and conseil.

so late ACR can have centralized fire control? in other words Quinet and San Giorgio are late of Blucher is possible that they have centralized fire control? or have you negative info?

p.s. for tennessee i find this unlucky the number can't read http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ship/ca-10-schem.htm

 

[delcyros]

Usually they had no firecontroll. I admit that I don´t know all the datas, so I could be wrong in one case or the other but I would be surprised to see centralized firecontroll in this period on ACR. That was retrofitted mostly in the 20´s to the best of my knowledge.

For Tennessee I may also suggest:

USS Tennessee / USS Memphis ARC 10
Note that the armour is Harvey type face hardened, not the more advanced Krupp type typically for other ships of this period.

 

[Vincenzo]

after all the info i'm also for Blucher it's a good firepower, some have best punch, with a centralized control, like the Minotaur, long range (i assume that 20000 yds are max usefull range), the only one gun battery too help the fire control , the speed advantage give the opportunity to brake or close or not the engagement. the protection is good and large (maybe not the thicker or the larger but a good combination).
If we put out the Blucher... to tomorrow

 

[Vincenzo]

putting out the Bluchere
we have
for firepower Rurik (with near 2nd San Giorgio, this is less good APC as reported from delcyros), firecontrol Minotaur, the Quinet have the advantage of only one gun battery but they firepower it's less of the only four 10"; the difference to Rurik and Minotaur it'also the superior range of russian ship (but also just in long range that centralized fire in best), if the range are enough short Tennessee have high firepower (or best high volume of fire from their 6" guns). my choice it's for Rurik.

for protection maybe San Giorgio good thicker either decks and belt, quality was Krupp cemented (for San Marco imported from U.S. and for San Giorgio built in Terni), also the area protected maybe good (unlucky the scheme don't show the side like bigbadbattleship site but there is a description of area covered in the text). good protection was show also from Quinet (but idk what quality) Scharnhorst. my choice it's for San Giorgio.

speed range it's more short but Scharnorst and Rurik the others go to 23 knts (actually this maybe trial speed and not full load/dirty ship speed)

My conclusion... very hard w/o Blucher choice a best ACR