Best Looking FW-190??

[marseille jr]

I wouldn't want to be caught in that type by p51 or p47 escort fighters though

 

[cheddar cheese]

Was just looking at the Fw-190C and it looks pretty neat! 8)

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I wouldn't want to be caught in that type by p51 or p47 escort fighters though

Why not. The P-51 was not as good as everyone thinks. It was overrated and late Fw-190A were just as good and a Fw-190D was better. Same for the P-47 even though it was better then the P-51.

 

[marseille jr]

Why not. The P-51 was not as good as everyone thinks. It was overrated and late Fw-190A were just as good

Yeah, me agree that the stang is a little bit overrated, but let's not drag it through the mire as it was an excellent aircraft all in all that saved many bomber crew's lifes. Btw, I didn't wanna be caught in an A becoz you would be playing the stang's game, namely contending at high altitudes at substantial speeds and finally diving away. Diving with a faster diver endowed with superior nimbleness (except rolling , ok) and 6 0.50's on yer tail isn't exactly what you might call a pleasant experience, especially when they are numerically superior, right?

The Dora was a lot more suited for this stuff as it dives formidably, but I always read it suffered from rather poor turning radius compared with the stang, at all speeds. It also forsook 2 of the A's cannons. So to say that the dora was so much better than the stang isn't quite right. I think they were generally well matched, with the Dora having the edge.

 

[Erich]

did you know that your pic of one of the D-9's flown by deceased friend Oskar Romm is copyrighted by the familie ?

Stab IV./JG 3 at Prenzlau this is one of two Dora 9's flown by him another shows his adjutants a/c that supposedly he flew but it is doubtful. Oskar scored 8 Soviet kills confirmed. he could out dive, outpace, out climb any Russian craft he encountered with the D variant. It helped of course that you were a kick in the ass pilot too..........

 

[marseille jr]

I didn't

Sorry

 

[Erich]

oh well a bitchin pic it is of a rare bird...........

IV. Stab had 6 Doras and Oskar R. was able to pretty much fill in one of the old Sturm staffels with the Dora. they made mincemeat out of the Soviet fighters they encountered. 2 pilots of the staffel equipped with the bird scored something like 4 Soviet kills apiece before wars end in the D-9

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Why not. The P-51 was not as good as everyone thinks. It was overrated and late Fw-190A were just as good

Yeah, me agree that the stang is a little bit overrated, but let's not drag it through the mire as it was an excellent aircraft all in all that saved many bomber crew's lifes. Btw, I didn't wanna be caught in an A becoz you would be playing the stang's game, namely contending at high altitudes at substantial speeds and finally diving away. Diving with a faster diver endowed with superior nimbleness (except rolling , ok) and 6 0.50's on yer tail isn't exactly what you might call a pleasant experience, especially when they are numerically superior, right?

The Dora was a lot more suited for this stuff as it dives formidably, but I always read it suffered from rather poor turning radius compared with the stang, at all speeds. It also forsook 2 of the A's cannons. So to say that the dora was so much better than the stang isn't quite right. I think they were generally well matched, with the Dora having the edge.

I will agree with you at high alltitudes the 51 was better then the 190A and the 51 was a good match for the 190D with the D having the upper hand. Which is why they built the Ta-152.

 

[Erich]

the G-10 and even the 109G-14/AS were better than the Fw 190Dora at high altitude.

G-10's were to protect JG 301 Doras on missions in 1945 until IV./JG 301 with G-10's was wiped out in 3 missions by P-51 escorts

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Really that I did not know, cool.

 

[marseille jr]

Was there much difference between the G10 and the K versions?

I always read that K models were actually too powerful for the old airframe.

I will agree with you at high alltitudes the 51 was better then the 190A and the 51 was a good match for the 190D with the D having the upper hand. Which is why they built the Ta-152.

Yes exactly.

IV. Stab had 6 Doras and Oskar R. was able to pretty much fill in one of the old Sturm staffels with the Dora. they made mincemeat out of the Soviet fighters they encountered. 2 pilots of the staffel equipped with the bird scored something like 4 Soviet kills apiece before wars end in the D-9

Yes. Btw, in the wardbird computer game the dora is described as the ultimate escape artist as it outdives any other plane and has the highest top speed. Another tactic there is too climb a while , then level off and accelerate. Planes that can follow the dora in a steep climb have inferior +250 miles/hour acceleration so... Scoring kills with the dora is hard however, as it turns extremely poorly there. So it takes high speed passes and well aimed snapshots (and thus a very good pilot/shooter) to score kills.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

The G-10 was vertually the same thing and was achieved by converting existing G's. The K-4 was produced in parallel.

 

[Erich]

not all G-10's had the 3cm mk 108 installed through the prop, also the K-4 had the wooden tail on most occassions

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

G-10s varied in many ways. Some had the larger tail of the K-4 and some had the tail of the G-6 and earlier, and with the armament like you said Erich.

The G-10 was a hogde pog put together and although at the time it came out was the fastest Bf-109 to be produced it was not that successful of a version.

 

[Erich]

have disagree Adler about the success. the a/c was very compitent in the air and the pilots loved it. It was though just short term until the K-4 could come into full on production. The K and G-10 were so close that it is almost impossible to tell the difference in pics. The K-4 as I said had wooden tail surfaces and some even in JG 27 had wodden wing tips.

the G-10 was just an advert by the Luftw. hierarchy to take ages old G-6 frames and adapt them with the newer DB 605D engines when they were in stock and alter them with refined turbocharger, oil cooler, erlau-laube canopies, taller tail(not all the time), exteneded tail wheel(not all the time) and the typical host of Rüst. of the older G-6 version.........

if anything the G-10 was a hot rod as we have all talked about before

 

[marseille jr]

I still have a remark about the G10 and the K4. Their airframes were designed in the mid thirties for engines with something like 650 HP. Again, I always read the airframe wasn't capable to handle the awesome pefomances of the last 109 models without problems.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

have disagree Adler about the success. the a/c was very compitent in the air and the pilots loved it. It was though just short term until the K-4 could come into full on production. The K and G-10 were so close that it is almost impossible to tell the difference in pics. The K-4 as I said had wooden tail surfaces and some even in JG 27 had wodden wing tips.

the G-10 was just an advert by the Luftw. hierarchy to take ages old G-6 frames and adapt them with the newer DB 605D engines when they were in stock and alter them with refined turbocharger, oil cooler, erlau-laube canopies, taller tail(not all the time), exteneded tail wheel(not all the time) and the typical host of Rüst. of the older G-6 version.........

if anything the G-10 was a hot rod as we have all talked about before

That is pretty much the conclusion that I have come to also.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I still have a remark about the G10 and the K4. Their airframes were designed in the mid thirties for engines with something like 650 HP. Again, I always read the airframe wasn't capable to handle the awesome pefomances of the last 109 models without problems.

You are somewhat correct. The later 109s from the G to the K had a loss of maneauverability and the controls would become harder at high speeds.

The aircraft thought no where was an easy aircraft to shoot down and at the hands of a good pilot she was as deadly as anything out there.

 

[marseille jr]

Back to the fw-190 now.
I read this on www.luftwaffe.cz

By 25 September, III./JG 54 had re-equipped with the Fw 190 D-9, becoming the first operational Gruppe of the Luftwaffe to receive the new type. On 28 September "Bazzi" shot down a Spitfire reconnaissance aircraft of the RAF`s 541 Squadron. The first confirmed victory of the Fw 190D-9. On 29 December 1944, III./JG 54 were ordered up against British fighter-bombers in the Osnabrück, Münster and Rheine areas. Weiss led Stab III JG 54 and 11./JG 54 into a large formation of Spitfires from 331 and 501 Squadrons. During the subsequent aerial combat Typhoons from 168 and 438 Squadrons arrived to re-enforce the British fighters. None of Weiss's Schwarm returned. In the blackest day of JG 54 "Grünherz" history, 17 aircraft were lost and 13 pilots, including Weiss, were killed and two pilots were injured while claiming six RAF fighters. It is assumed that Weiss was shot down in Fw 190 D-9 (W.Nr. 210 060) "Black 10" by F/Sgt Haanes of 331 (Norwegian) Squadron, RAF.

This isn't too favourable on part of the Dora. It was said to be aggravatingly unmanoeuvrable which seriously limited its dogfighting capabilities and its chances to shoot down opponents. Maybe that's the reason why Tank was in a hurry to complete the Ta-152? Anyway, in the computergame warbirds the Dora is the ultmate escape artist. You can dive with or outdive anything else and in the diving extensions, it has no equal and leaves anything in the dust. Another pôssibility is to climb to bleed the opponent down to sustained climbing speeds ... the planes that can follow or catch it have inferior +250miles/hour acceleration, so you just level out and open the throttle and you're gone. However, shooting down planes is an ordeal. Anyone easily outturns you. It's instant turn is horrible. So you have to resort to high speed passes above at least 3000 feet (to ensure your escape) and be an excellent shooter, or otherwise you can forget it. Does this matches reality? If so, the story on luftwaffe.cz isn't that surprising any more as they seemed to have entangled in a big scale dogfight which essentially rules out most of the Dora's assets and brings its flaws to surface. Amen.

Maybe could be a new thread, the actual performances of the Dora?

Anyway, does anyone have more ample and unbiased information about the Dora's performance in WWII (websites, books)?

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Obviously I can not confirm anything because I can only ready what other people have said and I have never spoken with an actual Fw-190D pilot but I have never heard of it being unmaneuverable or anything like that.

From my understanding though she did not turn very well so you would not want to turn fight with her.