Best Nightfighter of WW2

[rcristi]

I agree with your last statement too. You're right about jets, but a dedicated prop-driven nightfighter in full production in '42 would've made a great diference.

Best regards
Chris

 

[Erich]

if the Luftwaffe could have perfected a twin prop ac/ with AI in 1942 things would have changed in the night skies over the Reich, or at least be on par with the Mossie XIX and XXX. The P-61 still had too many bugs to work out of it.....

 

[rcristi]

P61? I cannot consider this ugly beast a good nightfighter for european skies... maybe it was good in Pacific. I cannot compare these two theaters because in Europe the nighfighting was more intense.

Cheers

 

[Lightning Guy]

The P-61s had a fair amount of success in Europe. It would have had even greater success if its development and initial deployment could have gone smoother. And while the 'intensity' might have been different between the ETO and the PTO, the techniques and equipment needed for night fighting were basically the same, weren't they?

 

[brad]

from my files............a nice little comparision for all of you between the Bf 110G-4 and the Ju 88G-6.

time frame is April of 45 when the staffeln of the nf force was consolidated.

Bf 110G-4:

Stab, 1 ,4 and 7./NJG 1
Stab./NJG 4
Stab, 4 and 7./NJG 5, mixed.........
Stab and 7./NJG 6

Ju 88G-6:

Stab, I, II, and III./NJG 2
Stab, I. 7 and 10./NJG 3
Stab, I., 4 and 7./NJG 4
Stab, I., 4, 7, and 10./NJG 5
Stab, I., 4, and 10./NJG 6
I. and II./NJG 100
Nachtjagdstaffel Norwegen

tottles

E ~
_________________
Nur die jenigen, die man vergisst, sind wirklich tot

sweet where did you get them

 

[Erich]

you know Brad I am not really sure..........have had it since 1966.

 

[MP-Willow]

Thank all for the great reading. I have enjoyed reading about the German a/c and am glad to see others them RAF and USAAC fans.

AS for the Black Widow being ugly it might not have the grace of the P-38 or F7F, but it was a night fighter and one that truely did do its job. As for not proforming in the ETO maybe because the RAF did have good n/f units already and more combat under them.

 

[Erich]

P-61's // not quite, it was due to the lack of experience in the night air war and problems of identifying friend from foe. As I said earlier the P-61 units are responsible for at least 2 RAF Mossie shoot-downs due to the forementioned problems. many times the radar AI shut down prematurily. There were plenty of targets in December of 44 as the German nf force lost over 114 twin engine fighters at night........

if anything that was done consistantly for the 418th, 422nd and 425th nfs was their night ground attack follies and they were quite accomplished at this task.....

 

[MP-Willow]

Follies?
I agree that we were "Green" in night combat and I have not found good information as to any USAAC pilots going over to fly and get practical experiance, any help on that? But I still think that as the P-61 got that combat experance it worked out a lot of the problums. But yes the night intruder missions were bery good.

 

[plan_D]

Willow, he means missions by the follies, I do believe. A light hearted approach to such a devestating act.

The P-61 certainly showed some impact on the ground during the night, but they were really not suitable for the fighter role. The pilots being green did not serve well for the RAF pilots. The Mosquito had the gap filled, after all, the reputation it got, and the attention payed to it by the Luftwaffe certainly shows its worth.

 

[Lightning Guy]

But the Mosqito's succes didn't eliminate the need for a USAAF night fighter. And the P-61 project was begun way back in '42 when no one was really sure how successful the Mossie would be.

 

[Erich]

yes plan_D had it correct the P-61 was much better suited to night ground attack in the ETO than regular night fighter duties. I have reports of German night fighter crews easily avoiding the big heavy a/c by simply banking sharply and diving away. Encounter reports via the 422nd and 425th nfs microfische in my possession say the same thing. Once the radar operator had the fix and before the pilot could get a positive visula the German a/c would bank away and dive steeply, the contact being lost.

Truthfully as said the Mosquito sqadrons could not be everywhere and there were of course limits in areas covered, so the P-61 squadrons would then be available to protect Pattons army sector. this for operations in fall of 44 through till war's end.

As for the PTO I am not usue of the real effectiveness of the fighter but obviously there were many kills against Japanese a/c.

 

[Lightning Guy]

I'm not sure about this but I believe the top two Black Widow squadrons were in the ETO with number 3 being in the PTO. That should be expected since pilots in the ETO would have had a greater number of targets. I believe I read something about P-61 crews using night-vision equipment which should have helped the P-61 established visual contact at a greater distance but I don't have the article with me to check that.

 

[Erich]

here's some stats for all of you on the P-61 units....

6th nfs in the PTO had 23 kills, 5 of them by the P-38.
414th in the ETO had 13 kills
415th in the MED had 11 all by the Beaufighter although the unit had the P-61.
416th had 5 kills by the Mossie and Beaufighter in the MED
417th had 9 kills in the MED by the Beaufighter
418th had 20 in the PTO
419th in the PTO had 6
421st had 13 in the PTO
422nd had 43 plus 5 V-1's in the ETO
423 in the ETO had 0, flew A-20's
425th in the ETO had 10 plus 4 V-1's. unit may have had another 5 German a/c to their list but unconfirmed.
426th in the PTO had 5
427th in the PTO had 0
547th in the PTO had 7 kills, 1 from a P-38
548th in the PTO had 5
549th in the PTO had 1 kill
550th in the PTO had 0.

E ~

 

[luca servitto]

now thats a list

 

[Lightning Guy]

So the top P-61 unit was in the ETO and the second was in the PTO. I was pretty close on that. Erich, do you have any info on if those P-38 kills were scored by the field modified nightfighters or simply by conventional P-38s flying at night? I know at least a hand full were field modified to carry radar but have not seen anything on their success.

 

[Erich]

I am going to have to look on that. do have a pic though somewhere of an all black P-38 with the under the nose radar section. whether this flew ops I cannot be certain....................give me just a little time to check. It appears though that the P-38 was the first nf used by the PTO groups until the P-61 became available. And of note as I have mentioned earlier the PTO groups kept the upward forward firing .50's turret as well as the lower fuselgae 20mm's. Dvastating firepower !

E ~

 

[MP-Willow]

Erich, the P-38s with the chin radar I think are factory Ls, but as I write this fast and not double checking I could be wrong. Also the PTO saw the use of navy F6F night fighters and even coursairs and the P-70 was an adaptation of the A-20 to fill the gap until the P-61. If it did not have as meny problums or of the USAAC would have been on the ball with night fighter development we might have seen it sooner!!

 

[Erich]

MP, the PTO is not my theater so to speak so cannot comment except to say that :

6th nfs flew the P-36A, P-40B, P-38, P-47D, P-70 and P-61.
418th flew the P-70, P-38 and P-61
419th and 421st the same three a/c types.

426th, 427th, 548th, 549th and 550th flew the P-61 only.

547th flew the P-38 and then P-61.

that's it and also the P-61 was used as a daytime ground attack a/c against Japanaese harbors and shipping besides against Mt's on roads.

 

[MP-Willow]

Erich thanks. So if we stay with the ETO for now, I still think the P-61 had it's place. I am still trying to understand how the Mossie with all that wood frame survived so well. But that I hope to find out as I read more on it, maybe this weekend after my Hurricane reading.