Best non-Skyhawk replacement for HMCS Bonaventure’s Banshees?

[Admiral Beez]

In 1962 HMCS Bonaventure retired her McDonnell F2H Banshee fighters, retaining only her fixed wing and rotary ASW aircraft. A good, albeit silent vid of RCN Banshee ops below.




Had Canada opted to keep a fighter for Bonaventure in 1962 until at least 1970, what were the best options? I'd like to exclude the obvious SkyHawk option, if only to keep things interesting. There's still the need for ASW, so a few Trackers will need to be kept.

I didn't see any reason for the ASW-focused RCN to be operating Banshees, but whatever justified those will carry on for the Banshee's replacement. Maybe the Cuban Missile Crisis, occurring the same year the Banshee was retired spurs the RCN to consider the need for fleet air defence or ground strikes, in case the Soviets base bombers in Latin America or the Caribbean?

But whatever the reason, the Banshee needs a replacement, so what are the options? I assume recent or soon to be retired USN fighters would be top of mind, especially any that can carry on Canada's AIM-9 Sidewinder capability.

 

[XBe02Drvr]

F9F Cougar (swept wing version) only recently out of production, plenty of low time airframes around, air to air and air to ground capable. Subsonic, but how important is that? Much cheaper than F8U, which is moderately supersonic, somewhat fragile on deck landings, and has limited air to ground capability. F11F ridiculously short legged.

 

[Graeme]

I think the French were expecting you to ring them in '62.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

What will be the primary mission of this aircraft? Will it be just a fighter or will it also drop bombs?

 

[ThomasP]

I agree with XBe02Drvr as to the F9F Couger, unless the RCN was looking for a serious upgrade in air-air capability. If they looked to the US for a replacement, I would suggest the F3H-2N/M Demon. The Demon got a bad rap due to poor reliability in its early career, but by the late '50s it was a fairly dependable(?) and good performer, though still underpowered. It was equipped for day/night/all weather air-air, plus air-ground, and it also used a version of the same radar as that in the Banshee (APG-51). The last of them were retired from USN service in 1964.

Armament was 4x 20mm, and a mix of 4x AIM-9 Sidewinder or AIM-7 Sparrow, plus 2x DT for air-air, or upto 4,000* lbs of ordnance for air-ground. It was also equipped for IFR.

Toward the end of its career there was a study done around replacing the J71 with a J79 for improved reliability and power, plus a few other detail improvements (including the hydraulic system). It was found to be feasible but never made it off the drawing board.

*edited from 6,000 to 4,000. Apparently the 6,000 lbs was only carried on a few specially modified aircraft (for testing?). 4,000 lbs was the maximum allowed for a standard F3H-2 airframe.

 

[Admiral Beez]

Cougar looks good. What about the Grumman F11 Tiger? It's small, yet supersonic. The deck to land on is awfully short, small and slow WOD.

What will be the primary mission of this aircraft? Will it be just a fighter or will it also drop bombs?

I'd think fighter and bomb-capable, though primarily fighter.

 

[XBe02Drvr]

Cougar looks good. What about the Grumman F11 Tiger? It's small, yet supersonic. The deck to land on is awfully short, small and slow WOD.

View attachment 594846
I'd think fighter and bomb-capable, though primarily fighter.

F11F awfully short legged. Limited combat radius.
All carrier decks look awfully short from "in close" to over the fantail.

 

[XBe02Drvr]

I think the French were expecting you to ring them in '62.

View attachment 594845

IIRC we in NATO were having a little spat with "Le Generale" about that time. Something about Les Francais jumping ship in pursuit of an independent "Force de Frappe".

 

[Admiral Beez]

IIRC we in NATO were having a little spat with "Le Generale" about that time. Something about Les Francais jumping ship in pursuit of an independent "Force de Frappe".

Yes, I think a return to British carrier fighters would be more likely, and not likely at all.

When I look at the angled deck below it looks like something the RN could have put on their carriers in the late 1930s or early 40s (when CAGs were increasing in size and aircraft were getting faster and larger). What's with the green colour?

 

[XBe02Drvr]

What's with the green colour?

That's almost exactly the shade of green they sometimes paint the interiors of small boat cabins, as it's supposed to calm seasickness. I bought a used 24 foot sailboat once whose cabin was "puke green". It got refinished.

 

[Admiral Beez]

That's almost exactly the shade of green they sometimes paint the interiors of small boat cabins, as it's supposed to calm seasickness. I bought a used 24 foot sailboat once whose cabin was "puke green". It got refinished.

It was still used for the Iroquois class destroyers. I wonder why the RCN likes green for light decks, perhaps there's good contrast in bad weather?

 

[XBe02Drvr]

perhaps there's good contrast in bad weather?

Good point!

 

[Admiral Beez]

F11F awfully short legged. Limited combat radius.

True. I like the idea of the Grumman F-9 Cougar, it drop bombs and missiles, and is significantly faster than the Banshee. And the Cougar is a sweet looking bird.

Wikipedia says it was operated by Argentina's navy, but this site says the catapult on their carrier (Canada's former HMCS Warrior) was not powerful enough for the Cougar. IIRC, HMCS Bonaventure updated her catapult, so perhaps the RCN can use the Cougar where the Argies could not.

I'm surprised Canada didn't already have an aircraft called the Cougar, but the name is free to use in 1960's RCN/RCAF. Interestingly, AIUI, today all aircraft used on RCN vessels are operated by the RCAF. The Banshee's were operated by the RCN's Naval Air Squadrons.

 

[nuuumannn]

an independent "Force de Frappe".

Sounds like something you order at "Le Starbucks" (yes, I know it's the French nuclear deterrent)

I'd like to exclude the obvious Skyhawk option, if only to keep things interesting.

Supermarine Scimitar perhaps?

In terms of cost, utilisation and upgradeability, the A-4 is the best answer for smaller navies though. The Royal Australian Navy operated A-4s off the Melbourne but found it required its catapults to be upgraded. The Aussies lost a few A-4s in catapult accidents. Its predecessor was the Sea Venom. When the Melbourne was retired the surplus RAN A-4s went to the RNZAF and were overhauled and upgraded with advanced avionics and weaponry.

RAN TA-4G N13-154911, formerly RNZAF A-4K NZ6255, formerly TA-4G N13-154911, on display at the Fleet Air Arm Museum, Nowra, NSW.

Skyhawk

Ex RAN A-4G N13-154904 with the RNZAF as A-4K NZ6212 taken yonks ago.

NZ6212

 

[Admiral Beez]

Supermarine Scimitar perhaps?

God no, total rubbish.

In terms of cost, utilisation and upgradeability, the A-4 is the best answer for smaller navies though.

Yes, agreed, but that makes for a short discussion. For arguments sake, the A-4 is out. Had we bought A-4s, I expect when Bonnie was retired in the early 1970s that the Skyhawks would be transferred to the RCAF, likely still in service into the 1980s, perhaps precluding the F-5 buy.

In 1962 when the Banshee was retired from HMCS Bonaventure, the Canadian government ordered three new Oberon subs from Britain and six new frigates, so money is tight. We need a AIM-9 capable fighter that's faster than the Banshee, but still cheap.

 

[XBe02Drvr]

Sounds like something you order at "Le Starbucks" (yes, I know it's the French nuclear deterrent)

Back in my high school days (Berlin wall, Cuban Missile Crisis, Kennedy Assassination and drive-in burger stands) "Force de Frappe" was the name for an ice cream milkshake with just enough raw ginger in it to give you a "kick in the mouth". YUM!

 

[Admiral Beez]

The Grumman TF-9J two-seat trainer would have been good for training Bonaventure's pilots. Could the twin-seater serve in a combat role as well as the single seater? It looks potently armed below. Did the trainer have less fuel or weaponry? The single seater has 4 × 20 mm cannons.

 

[Admiral Beez]

What about the Vought F-8 Crusader? Too fast and too big for Canada's small carrier?

Here's a USN Phantom, albeit lightened on the similarly sized HMS Hermes. Perhaps the Crusader would work on Bonnie? Though lift dims and catapult limits may force us back to the Cougar, and cost.

 

[XBe02Drvr]

The Grumman TF-9J two-seat trainer would have been good for training Bonaventure's pilots. Could the twin-seater serve in a combat role as well as the single seater? It looks potently armed below. Did the trainer have less fuel or weaponry? The single seater has 4 × 20 mm cannons.

View attachment 595233

The TF9Js that visited us from time to time had a single 20MM. Since their nuggets were mostly headed for fighters, which at that time meant Phantoms, gunnery was somewhat de-emphasized.

 

[ThomasP]

The USMC operated a small number of the two-seat TF-9J(F9F-8T) in the FAC role during the early part of the Viet Nam war. The standard TF-9J retained the capabilities of the standard single-seat F-9J(F9F-8) in terms of external ordnance (bombs, rockets, AIM-9 Sidewinders, DTs, etc), but they only carried 2x 20mm cannon in the nose instead of 4. Electronics were similar, except maybe no APG-30 ranging radar? Fuel load was identical.

The USMC FAC variants sometimes used 2.75" FFAR smoke rounds for target marking. I do not know how they were equipped in terms of electronics.