Best non-Skyhawk replacement for HMCS Bonaventure’s Banshees?

Ad: This forum contains affiliate links to products on Amazon and eBay. More information in Terms and rules

A

Admiral Beez

Major
9,143
10,428
Oct 21, 2019
Toronto, Canada
In 1962 HMCS Bonaventure retired her McDonnell F2H Banshee fighters, retaining only her fixed wing and rotary ASW aircraft. A good, albeit silent vid of RCN Banshee ops below.



Had Canada opted to keep a fighter for Bonaventure in 1962 until at least 1970, what were the best options? I'd like to exclude the obvious SkyHawk option, if only to keep things interesting. There's still the need for ASW, so a few Trackers will need to be kept.

I didn't see any reason for the ASW-focused RCN to be operating Banshees, but whatever justified those will carry on for the Banshee's replacement. Maybe the Cuban Missile Crisis, occurring the same year the Banshee was retired spurs the RCN to consider the need for fleet air defence or ground strikes, in case the Soviets base bombers in Latin America or the Caribbean?

But whatever the reason, the Banshee needs a replacement, so what are the options? I assume recent or soon to be retired USN fighters would be top of mind, especially any that can carry on Canada's AIM-9 Sidewinder capability.

 
Last edited:
F9F Cougar (swept wing version) only recently out of production, plenty of low time airframes around, air to air and air to ground capable. Subsonic, but how important is that? Much cheaper than F8U, which is moderately supersonic, somewhat fragile on deck landings, and has limited air to ground capability. F11F ridiculously short legged.
 
I agree with XBe02Drvr as to the F9F Couger, unless the RCN was looking for a serious upgrade in air-air capability. If they looked to the US for a replacement, I would suggest the F3H-2N/M Demon. The Demon got a bad rap due to poor reliability in its early career, but by the late '50s it was a fairly dependable(?) and good performer, though still underpowered. It was equipped for day/night/all weather air-air, plus air-ground, and it also used a version of the same radar as that in the Banshee (APG-51). The last of them were retired from USN service in 1964.

Armament was 4x 20mm, and a mix of 4x AIM-9 Sidewinder or AIM-7 Sparrow, plus 2x DT for air-air, or upto 4,000* lbs of ordnance for air-ground. It was also equipped for IFR.

Toward the end of its career there was a study done around replacing the J71 with a J79 for improved reliability and power, plus a few other detail improvements (including the hydraulic system). It was found to be feasible but never made it off the drawing board.

*edited from 6,000 to 4,000. Apparently the 6,000 lbs was only carried on a few specially modified aircraft (for testing?). 4,000 lbs was the maximum allowed for a standard F3H-2 airframe.
 
Last edited:
XBe02Drvr said:
IIRC we in NATO were having a little spat with "Le Generale" about that time. Something about Les Francais jumping ship in pursuit of an independent "Force de Frappe".
Click to expand...
Yes, I think a return to British carrier fighters would be more likely, and not likely at all.

When I look at the angled deck below it looks like something the RN could have put on their carriers in the late 1930s or early 40s (when CAGs were increasing in size and aircraft were getting faster and larger). What's with the green colour?

 
Last edited:
XBe02Drvr said:
That's almost exactly the shade of green they sometimes paint the interiors of small boat cabins, as it's supposed to calm seasickness. I bought a used 24 foot sailboat once whose cabin was "puke green". It got refinished.
Click to expand...
It was still used for the Iroquois class destroyers. I wonder why the RCN likes green for light decks, perhaps there's good contrast in bad weather?

 
XBe02Drvr said:
F11F awfully short legged. Limited combat radius.
Click to expand...
True. I like the idea of the Grumman F-9 Cougar, it drop bombs and missiles, and is significantly faster than the Banshee. And the Cougar is a sweet looking bird.



Wikipedia says it was operated by Argentina's navy, but this site says the catapult on their carrier (Canada's former HMCS Warrior) was not powerful enough for the Cougar. IIRC, HMCS Bonaventure updated her catapult, so perhaps the RCN can use the Cougar where the Argies could not.

I'm surprised Canada didn't already have an aircraft called the Cougar, but the name is free to use in 1960's RCN/RCAF. Interestingly, AIUI, today all aircraft used on RCN vessels are operated by the RCAF. The Banshee's were operated by the RCN's Naval Air Squadrons.
 
Last edited:
XBe02Drvr said:
an independent "Force de Frappe".
Click to expand...

Sounds like something you order at "Le Starbucks" (yes, I know it's the French nuclear deterrent)

Admiral Beez said:
I'd like to exclude the obvious Skyhawk option, if only to keep things interesting.
Click to expand...

Supermarine Scimitar perhaps?

In terms of cost, utilisation and upgradeability, the A-4 is the best answer for smaller navies though. The Royal Australian Navy operated A-4s off the Melbourne but found it required its catapults to be upgraded. The Aussies lost a few A-4s in catapult accidents. Its predecessor was the Sea Venom. When the Melbourne was retired the surplus RAN A-4s went to the RNZAF and were overhauled and upgraded with advanced avionics and weaponry.

RAN TA-4G N13-154911, formerly RNZAF A-4K NZ6255, formerly TA-4G N13-154911, on display at the Fleet Air Arm Museum, Nowra, NSW.

Skyhawk

Ex RAN A-4G N13-154904 with the RNZAF as A-4K NZ6212 taken yonks ago.

NZ6212
 
nuuumannn said:
Supermarine Scimitar perhaps?
Click to expand...
God no, total rubbish.
nuuumannn said:
In terms of cost, utilisation and upgradeability, the A-4 is the best answer for smaller navies though.
Click to expand...
Yes, agreed, but that makes for a short discussion. For arguments sake, the A-4 is out. Had we bought A-4s, I expect when Bonnie was retired in the early 1970s that the Skyhawks would be transferred to the RCAF, likely still in service into the 1980s, perhaps precluding the F-5 buy.

In 1962 when the Banshee was retired from HMCS Bonaventure, the Canadian government ordered three new Oberon subs from Britain and six new frigates, so money is tight. We need a AIM-9 capable fighter that's faster than the Banshee, but still cheap.
 
Last edited:
The TF9Js that visited us from time to time had a single 20MM. Since their nuggets were mostly headed for fighters, which at that time meant Phantoms, gunnery was somewhat de-emphasized.
 
The USMC operated a small number of the two-seat TF-9J(F9F-8T) in the FAC role during the early part of the Viet Nam war. The standard TF-9J retained the capabilities of the standard single-seat F-9J(F9F-8) in terms of external ordnance (bombs, rockets, AIM-9 Sidewinders, DTs, etc), but they only carried 2x 20mm cannon in the nose instead of 4. Electronics were similar, except maybe no APG-30 ranging radar? Fuel load was identical.

The USMC FAC variants sometimes used 2.75" FFAR smoke rounds for target marking. I do not know how they were equipped in terms of electronics.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Users who are viewing this thread

Total: 1 (members: 0, guests: 1)

Similar threads

A
Best plan for Argentina in Falklands War
Replies
9
Views
871
EwenS
E
A
Best straight wing jet fighter?
2
Replies
21
Views
2K
MIflyer
M
A
Best post-MiG 21 single engined Soviet/Russian fighter or bomber?
2 3
Replies
51
Views
3K
bf109xxl
B
A
Any FAA jet fighters good for Korean War?
Replies
12
Views
1K
Admiral Beez
A
XB-70 Valkyrie. An interview with Gen. Fred Ascani, responsible for the project
Replies
2
Views
548
Zipper730
Menu
Log in
Register