Best Pacific Fighter?

[wmaxt]

I the web page (p-38(C.C.Jorden...)) mJorden states that in various conversations/statements with aces on both sides that the P-51 P-47s were disliked but the P-38s were "The most hated and feared aircraft"

We had a Japanese member of the Fighter Ace community who posted that his father would pray before each sortie that he would not encounter Corsairs. I think it sorta mattered where and when they were stationed as to which planes were most feared/respected. And this probably had as much to do with the experiance level of the enemy pilots as the planes they flew by 1944.

=S=

Lunatic

True enough, you were never concerned about the aircraft you never encountered. I read somewhare that one of the things the Japanese hated about the P-38 was that with it's range they never knew when or where they would show up.

 

[lesofprimus]

Thanks Evan....

 

[lesofprimus]

N1K2-J Shiden Kai (Violet Lightning Modified)

Although the N1K1-J was an outstanding fighter, it did have some serious defects. Its Homare 21 engine was notoriously unreliable, and the complex doubly-retracting landing gear was subject to frequent failures. Even before the N1J1-J entered production, work had already begun at Kawanishi on correcting some of its more glaring defects, in particular its long and complex landing gear.

The result of these changes was the Shiden-Kai (Violet Lightning--Modified). Given the designation N1K2-J, the aircraft was completely redesigned so as to use fewer components in order to simplify its construction. More non-critical materials were to be used. Another step towards simplification involved the use of pre-formed sheet construction. Perhaps the most easily-noted innovation was the use of a low-mounted wing in place of the original mid-mounted wing. This permitted a shorter set of landing gear legs to be used, and the complex double-retraction system which had caused so many problems could be eliminated. In addition, the fuselage was lengthened and the tail surfaces were redesigned. The result was a virtually new aircraft, although the unreliable 1990 hp Homare 21 engine of the N1K1-J was retained. Armament was four 20-mm cannon, all mounted internally to the wing.

The first N1K2-J prototype took off on its maiden flight on December 31, 1943. It was handed over to the Japanese Navy for trials in April of 1944. Although the Homare 21 engine was still mechanically unreliable, the Navy liked the aircraft so much that they authorized quantity production of the N1K2-J to be its standard land-based fighter and fighter-bomber even before the service trials were completed. Production aircraft were designated Navy Interceptor Fighter Shiden Kai (Violet Lightning Modified) Model 21. In addition to the Kawanishi plant at Naruo, the Shiden Kai was ordered into production at the Himeji works of Kawanishi. Shiden Kai fighter aircraft were also ordered into production from the Dai-Nana Kokuki Seisakusho (7th Airframe Works) of the Mitsubishi Jukogyo K. K. at Tsurashima, from the Aichi Kokuki K. K. at Eitoku, from the Showa Hikoki K. K. at Shinonoi, and from the Naval Air Arsenals at Hiro, Omura, and Koza.

A further seven prototypes had been completed by June of 1944, However, the prototypes began to experience a long series of teething troubles, which proved difficult to correct. The Shiden-Kai program began to slip its schedules, and by the autumn of 1944 the N1K2-J production lines were beginning to experience shortages of vital components due to B-29 attacks against the factories of Kawanishi's subcontractors. By the end of 1944, only 60 Shiden Kais had been delivered by the Naruo factory, and production at Himeji did not begin until March of 1945. The other manufacturers in the Shiden Kai pool were never able to produce more than a handful of aircraft.

The Shiden Kai was to become the best all-round fighter to be operational in the Pacific theatre. It was fast, powerful, and maneuverable, and was well-armed and armored. In the hands of an experienced pilot, the Shiden-Kai was the equal of any Allied fighter, even the later models of the P-51 Mustang which began to appear over Japan in the spring of 1945. In one notable action, on February 16 1945 over Yokohama, Warrant Officer Kinsuke Muto of the 343rd Kokutai in an N1K2-J single-handedly battled a dozen F6F Hellcats. He shot down four of them before the rest were forced to break off combat and return to their carrier.

However, against the B-29, the N1K2-J was less successful, since its climbing speed was insufficient and the power of the Homare 21 engine fell off rather rapidly at higher altitudes.

Only 415 production examples of the outstanding N1K2-J fighter were built, owing primarily to construction snags and delays resulting from the continuous B-29 raids on the Japanese homeland in the last year of the war. With the exception of Kawanishi's Naruo and Himeji plants, the other companies involved in the production pool were late in getting started and delivered only a token number of machines before the war ended. It is fortunate for the Allies that this outstanding aircraft was not available in greater quantity.

After the war in the Pacific was over, several N1K2-J fighters were discovered intact at Japanese airfields and were brought back to the United States for study. These aircraft were compared to all the available Allied fighters and found to be superior in all around superiorty. In mock dogfighting, several American aviators complemented the aircraft and its performance. They went so far as to say that had the Japanese been able to mass produce this aircraft earlier in the War, the loss of pilots would have been unacceptable.

Specification of the Kawanishi N1K2-J Shiden Kai:

One Nakajima NK9H Homare 21 eighteen-cylinder air-cooled radial rated at 1990 hp for takeoff, 1825 hp at 5740 feet, 1625 hp at 20,015 feet. Performance: Maximum speed 369 mph at 19,355 feet, 359 mph at 9840 feet. Cruising speed 230 mph at 9845 feet, service ceiling 35,300 feet cruising speed 230 mph at 6600 feet. Climb to 19,685 feet in 7 minutes 22 seconds. Normal range 1066 miles at 219 mph at 9840 feet, maximum range 1488 miles with 88 Imp. gall. drop tank.

Weights: 5858 pounds empty, 8818 pounds loaded, 10,714 pounds maximum loaded.

Dimensions: wingspan 39 feet 4 7/16 inches, length 30 feet 7 29/32 inches, height 12 feet 11 29/32 inches, wing area 252.95 square feet.

Armament: Four 20-mm Type 99 Model 2 cannon in the wings. Two 551-pound bombs or one 88 Imp. gall. drop tank could be carried externally.

 

[wmaxt]

I revisited the article "The F4U-4 the best fighter/bomber in WWII" "Planes and Pilots " website and it's comparison of the F-4U-4. It has several Except for the P-38 comments acceleration, manuverability, dive speed. Maimly it was a comparison with the P-51 so a further comparison had to be made to show the P-38s stats which are better or the same. Top speed P-38L 443mph, F4U-4 446mph (confirmed with other references the -5 is 460mph) Max climb P-38 4, 120-4,225, F4u-4 4,175 except for carrier landings the f-4U does not have a clear advantage anywhere and the P-38 has small advantages in many areas criticle in ACM.

I still go for the P-38

 

[MichaelHenley]

My condolences to you Les.

 

[lesofprimus]

Thank You...

 

[cheddar cheese]

Me too.

 

[Anonymous]

I revisited the article "The F4U-4 the best fighter/bomber in WWII" "Planes and Pilots " website and it's comparison of the F-4U-4. It has several Except for the P-38 comments acceleration, manuverability, dive speed. Maimly it was a comparison with the P-51 so a further comparison had to be made to show the P-38s stats which are better or the same. Top speed P-38L 443mph, F4U-4 446mph (confirmed with other references the -5 is 460mph) Max climb P-38 4, 120-4,225, F4u-4 4,175 except for carrier landings the f-4U does not have a clear advantage anywhere and the P-38 has small advantages in many areas criticle in ACM.

I still go for the P-38

That top speed for the P-38L is with the under wing pylons removed. If you remove the pylons on the F4U-4, top speed was 464 mph. How can you argue with the USN about the figures? (see http://www.history.navy.mil/branches/hist-ac/f4u-4.pdf - check the last page notes for the "clean condition", which shows a speed of 403 knots). Climb rate is also quite a bit better, at 4.9 mins to 20,000 feet with capped plyons aboard, vs 7 mins to the same alt for the P-38L. That's a huge difference.

The p-38 is one of my favorite planes too, but I still think the F4U-4 was clearly superior at all but very high altitudes, where the P-38 was perhaps slightly better.

=S=

Lunatic

 

[lesofprimus]

The p-38 is one of my favorite planes too, but I still think the F4U-4 was clearly superior at all but very high altitudes, where the P-38 was perhaps slightly better.

I agree on all counts....

 

[Lightning Guy]

P-38 would always out-turn, out-dive, out-gun, out-range the Corsair. Best evidence seems to suggest that the speed and climb were relatively close.

Furthermore, the P-38 enjoyed significant advantages over the Shiden in everything but maneuverability. Properly flown, P-38's were able to counter Shidens without much difficulty.

 

[Anonymous]

P-38 would always out-turn, out-dive, out-gun, out-range the Corsair. Best evidence seems to suggest that the speed and climb were relatively close.

Furthermore, the P-38 enjoyed significant advantages over the Shiden in everything but maneuverability. Properly flown, P-38's were able to counter Shidens without much difficulty.

Best evidence is that the F4U-4 with capped pylons was about the same speed and climbed 33% faster than the P-38L with the pylons removed.

The P-38, even the L, could not out turn a F4U-4 at speed. I seriously doubt it could out-dive one either, max dive speed on the F4U-4 was 550 mph and it was very fast on entering a dive and did not suffer the compression problems of the P-38. The F4U-4 was still a stable gun platform at 500 mph, the P-38 certainly was not.

The Shiden's were no match for the F4U-1d, let alone the F4U-4.

=S=

Lunatic

 

[Lightning Guy]

The F would out-turn the P-51 which would turn with the F4U. The L was even better. The P-38 could handle the F4U in a turning fight. It could also out dive it. The higher diving-speed of the F4U proves nothing. The P-38 accelerated faster in the dive, meaning that it will pull away from the Corsair once the dive is initiated.

 

[lesofprimus]

The Shiden's were no match for the F4U-1d, let alone the F4U-4.

Funny how many Shiden pilots racked up kills over the invincible F4U........

 

[GermansRGeniuses]

I know! Strange thing, that!



The N1K1/2 were like the Mig-29s of today (German in particular)...


Pretty fast, EXTREMELY agile, and nigh-on invincible in close, though both have major disadvantages in other areas, whatever they might be.


In mock dogfights, thought technologically at a great disadvantage, Luftwaffe (only plane to be kept from the East by the reformed Luftwaffe after the wall was torn down) Mig-29s proceeded to kick F-16 Block 50 ASS.


I think it was something like 40 mock kills on the F-16s before they "took down" a Mig!

 

[lesofprimus]

Heres alittle tidbit, although not against Corsairs......


In one notable action, on February 16 1945 over Yokohama, Warrant Officer Kinsuke Muto of the 343rd Kokutai in an N1K2-J single-handedly battled a dozen F6F Hellcats...... He shot down four of them before the rest were forced to break off combat and return to their carrier......

 

[Anonymous]

Heres alittle tidbit, although not against Corsairs......


In one notable action, on February 16 1945 over Yokohama, Warrant Officer Kinsuke Muto of the 343rd Kokutai in an N1K2-J single-handedly battled a dozen F6F Hellcats...... He shot down four of them before the rest were forced to break off combat and return to their carrier......

IIRC they were low on fuel and ammo and heading for home when bounced. And I think he in fact only shot down one.

=S=

Lunatic

 

[Anonymous]

The Shiden's were no match for the F4U-1d, let alone the F4U-4.

Funny how many Shiden pilots racked up kills over the invincible F4U........

How many?

 

[Anonymous]

The F would out-turn the P-51 which would turn with the F4U. The L was even better. The P-38 could handle the F4U in a turning fight. It could also out dive it. The higher diving-speed of the F4U proves nothing. The P-38 accelerated faster in the dive, meaning that it will pull away from the Corsair once the dive is initiated.

The P-51 could not turn with the Corsair, where do you get that from?

See P51-B Vs F4U-1 pg. 5. Also see the conclusions on page 7. Keep in mind the -1 corsair was inferior to the -1d which was inferior to the -4, where the P-51B was superior (as a dogfighter) to the D model. As you will see, the Corsair was the better turning plane.

The P-51 could out turn the P-38 at medium speeds and above. Only if the speed got below about 200 IAS would the P-38 start to have a meaningful advantage. Above 300 IAS, the P-51 wins hands down. The F4U-4 could out turn the P-51, and at reasonable combat speeds of over 200 IAS it could out turn the P-38.

Yes the P-38 had better initial dive acceleration than the F4U-4. But even that is subject to limits, the P-38 would start suffering buffeting from compression well over 50 mph before the Corsair would. The P-38 dives better, but not a lot better, probably not enough better to escape.

 

[lesofprimus]

He shot down 4 Hellcats.. Only 1 pilot was lost.....

 

[plan_D]

The F-16 can't fire out of its visual range though, GrG. So, it's not that impressive.