Best piston engine(s) for fighters of 1945?

[drgondog]

The 9th AF had been scheduled to receive the P-51 units, that changed but for example the 354th FG remained with the 9th AF. On 31 January the 351st FG with P-51 went to 8th AF exchanged for the 358th FG with P-47. On 9 March 1944 the 355th FG began moving from P-47 to P-51, officially completing it a week later, thereby making the 8th AF fighter strength 3 P-38, 7 P-47 and 2 P-51 groups, there were 3 more conversions done by mid May, plus the arrival of the 339th with P-51, while another P-38 group arrived mid May. D-Day force 4 P-38, 4 P-47, 7 P-51. The P-38 were phased out July to September, then 3 of the remaining P-47 between mid September and early 1945.

Geoffrey - the 357th FG was traded from 9th AF to 8th AF. The 357FS/355th actually began transitioning on P-51B (in training) on or about 25 Feb but most were pulled and temporarily assigned to the 4th FG two days later. All 'loaners' were returned to 355th after the March 6 Berlin mission. On the 6th one squdron (357th FS/355th FG) flew the P-51B. The entire 355th flew first 'all P-51B' on 9 March. After the 355th conversion on the 9th March there were 3 (4, 355, 357FG).

The 78th FG fully transitioned in last week of December, leaving only the 56th flying P-47.

The shortage of USAAF fighters saw the 9th AF units doing escort duty and the RAF helping with insertion and withdrawal cover.

Napier failed to get the Sabre IV to pass the 50 hour test. The Sabre V numbers seem to include a lot of conversions from mark II engines, there were 142 Tempest VI.

Another Napier did not fail it was stopped by outside forces and where the documents have differences to the reported conclusions. The RAF was quite aware of the early jet limitations.

Typhoons were out of service in September 1945, looks like there were 11 Tempest V fighter squadrons, 5 gave up their mark V by end 1945, 4 more in 1946 and the final 2 in February and April 1948. The 4 mark VI squadrons received their aircraft late 1946 to early 1947, giving them up late 1949 and finally March 1950. Meaning the RAF had around 6 Sabre powered fighter squadrons until April 1948. The 9 mark II squadrons all received their aircraft earlier than the mark VI squadrons, from late 1945, but did not hold onto them for as long, 3 gave the mark II up in 1946, 3 in 1947 then 1 each in 1948, 1949 and June 1951.

 

[Geoffrey Sinclair]

Geoffrey - the 357th FG was traded from 9th AF to 8th AF. The 357FS/355th actually began transitioning on P-51B (in training) on or about 25 Feb but most were pulled and temporarily assigned to the 4th FG two days later. All 'loaners' were returned to 355th after the March 6 Berlin mission. On the 6th one squdron (357th FS/355th FG) flew the P-51B. The entire 355th flew first 'all P-51B' on 9 March. After the 355th conversion on the 9th March there were 3 (4, 355, 357FG).

Yes, correct, I managed to pick up the 351st Bomb Group instead of the 357th Fighter Group when transcribing and the public domain references I used seem to have had the end transition date as the start of transition date (probably the same for 30 December 1944 date I have for the 78th FG) or I misunderstood.

Went looking and found strength reports saying the 355th with 52 P-47 on 15 February, 3 P-51 and 60 P-47 on 29 February, 77 P-51 on 6 March.

The 78th FG fully transitioned in last week of December, leaving only the 56th flying P-47.

Any idea when the 78th FG began to transition?

The project was trying to come up with a day to day 8th AF OOB.

 

[drgondog]

Yes, correct, I managed to pick up the 351st Bomb Group instead of the 357th Fighter Group when transcribing and the public domain references I used seem to have had the end transition date as the start of transition date (probably the same for 30 December 1944 date I have for the 78th FG) or I misunderstood.

Went looking and found strength reports saying the 355th with 52 P-47 on 15 February, 3 P-51 and 60 P-47 on 29 February, 77 P-51 on 6 March.


Any idea when the 78th FG began to transition?

The project was trying to come up with a day to day 8th AF OOB.

If you can find interval reports, you will see aproximately 20 P-51s delivered 24-26 Feb - then TDY for 8 to 4th FG on or about 28 Feb.

As to 78th, according to Garry Frye - the first arrivals were 16 December, mostly new K's and some B's.

Do you know Peter Randall? He and Ted Damick have a spectacular OOB data base for 8th AF.

The 355th dispatched the 357FS with P-51B/C on 8 March (not the 6th as I said above - that was last 'all P-47 mission).

 

[Geoffrey Sinclair]

If you can find interval reports, you will see aproximately 20 P-51s delivered 24-26 Feb - then TDY for 8 to 4th FG on or about 28 Feb.

Dates noted about the 355th and 78th, thanks. No interval reports, the most detailed data I have are some weekly reports from AIR 22/325, 8th and 9th AF aircraft and personnel strengths, including non flying units, I am sure someone is interested that as of 29 February 1944 the 1512th QM Truck Battalion HQ and HQ detachment plus auxiliary units at Huyton in Lancashire had 56 officers and 749 enlisted men. Does show the long support tail an Air Force has.

Do you know Peter Randall? He and Ted Damick have a spectacular OOB data base for 8th AF.

Do not know either man, I am sure with their access they have a far better OOB than my efforts, which are basically group level plus independent squadrons, with the idea at any date between 23 February 1942 and 31 December 1945 you could read off the OOB for that day, including the command structure during the war, post war just group strengths, showing the run down.

 

[drgondog]

Dates noted about the 355th and 78th, thanks. No interval reports, the most detailed data I have are some weekly reports from AIR 22/325, 8th and 9th AF aircraft and personnel strengths, including non flying units, I am sure someone is interested that as of 29 February 1944 the 1512th QM Truck Battalion HQ and HQ detachment plus auxiliary units at Huyton in Lancashire had 56 officers and 749 enlisted men. Does show the long support tail an Air Force has.

Do not know either man, I am sure with their access they have a far better OOB than my efforts, which are basically group level plus independent squadrons, with the idea at any date between 23 February 1942 and 31 December 1945 you could read off the OOB for that day, including the command structure during the war, post war just group strengths, showing the run down.

If you have Facebook, reach out to him and mention me if it will kelp (James William Marshall). Also try littlelfriends.co.uk

 

[Geoffrey Sinclair]

Correspondence with the friendly Peter Randall gives the following results.

1) Peter has information down to individual fighter aircraft level and can report useful things like the 78th Fighter Group flew their first P-51 missions on different days for the three squadrons. 82nd on 29th December, 83rd on 28th December and 84th on 5th January. In fact, the 84th were using ex-82nd and 83rd P-47s from 28th December until their first P-51 mission.

2) What the heck is a bomber??!!

 

[drgondog]

Correspondence with the friendly Peter Randall gives the following results.

1) Peter has information down to individual fighter aircraft level and can report useful things like the 78th Fighter Group flew their first P-51 missions on different days for the three squadrons. 82nd on 29th December, 83rd on 28th December and 84th on 5th January. In fact, the 84th were using ex-82nd and 83rd P-47s from 28th December until their first P-51 mission.

2) What the heck is a bomber??!!

Peter is an outstanding historian. His website Littlefriends is the single best internet resource for 8th AF Fighter Command.

I also recommend his books on the 56th FG (with Co-author Nigel Julian) as the best of the 56th FG histories.

 

[Reluctant Poster]

Peter is an outstanding historian. His website Littlefriends is the single best internet resource for 8th AF Fighter Command.

I also recommend his books on the 56th FG (with Co-author Nigel Julian) as the best of the 56th FG histories.

Can anyone explain the stupidity of converting arguably the most successful P 51 group to P 47s?

 

[drgondog]

Can anyone explain the stupidity of converting arguably the most successful P 51 group to P 47s?

I believe so, Save the Recon Groups the most important primary mission was short range CAS for which the P-47 was better suited in late 1944. Continent based XIX TAC also had the P-47D-25 & Subsequent so even when medium bomber escort was tasked, it had more than enough range. The better question is why did Quesada agree to change 354th FG back to P-51D in February?

 

[Reluctant Poster]

I believe so, Save the Recon Groups the most important primary mission was short range CAS for which the P-47 was better suited in late 1944. Continent based XIX TAC also had the P-47D-25 & Subsequent so even when medium bomber escort was tasked, it had more than enough range. The better question is why did Quesada agree to change 354th FG back to P-51D in February?

My understanding is that the pilots hated the P47

 

[drgondog]

My understanding is that the pilots hated the P47

That agrees with my own feedback

 

[Frog]

While Quesada seemed to be a P-38 man, including with embarassing results :

 

[Reluctant Poster]

That agrees with my own feedback

Do you have the story behind the least successful P51 group (363)? I have read different versions

 

[Geoffrey Sinclair]

My understanding is the 354th was converted to P-47 for a time due to a lack of available P-51. The 9th Air Force in the UK started with 1 P-51, gained 1,164, lost 955 (both all causes including transfers etc.) to end up with 210 for its then 2 P-51 groups as the 370th had converted from P-38.

Air 40/1096 Statistical Summary of 9th Air Force Operations 16 Oct 1943 to 8 May 1945,
"The Ninth Air Force acquired on its arrival in England in October 1943 four under-strength medium bombardment groups from VIII Air Support Command and one troop carrier group. From then until June 1944 there was a gradually accelerated build-up until on D Day, the air force achieved its all-time maximum strength of eight medium and three light bombardment groups, 18 fighter groups, 14 troop carrier groups (lost in August to First Allied Airborne Army), and two reconnaissance groups consisting of four photo and four tactical reconnaissance squadrons. Aircraft numbered 7500, consisting of 4546 tactical, 2679 gliders and 575 utility types; and there were 5337 combat crews, including 990 bomber crews, 2032 fighter crews, 214 reconnaissance and 2101 troop carrier and glider crews. The averages of 663 tactical aircraft and the small overage in combat crews were quickly reduced when extensive operations were started. Combat losses immediately wiped out the excess fighter and reconnaissance aircraft and insufficient replacements created a critical shortage which existed until V-E Day despite the fact that some groups were converted to aircraft models which had a larger replacement flow. An overage of bombers was maintained throughout the period of operations, however, mainly due to the flow of A-26 aircraft for the conversion of B-26 and A-20 groups. The air force aircraft authorization per group was increased in 5ovember 1944 to counteract the delayed deliveries from distant United Kingdom ports to airstrips. Combat crews created no problem as there was very generally an overage in all units.

On the completion of the combat mission of the air force, the aircraft authorization was decreased to unit equipment, with authority to retain all excess in the air force for the present."

The 9th Air Force in World War II by Kenn C Rust "A minor tragedy occurred... The 354th... was ordered to give up its Mustangs and reequip with P-47... There was much gnashing of teeth among the proud pilots."

354th FG arrived 1-Dec-43 to 22-Nov-44 with P-51 from 22-Nov-44 to 15-Feb-45 with P-47 from 15-Feb-45 to 31-May-45 with P-51
363rd FG arrived 24-Feb-44 to 10-Sep-44 with P-51 became 363rd TRG equipped with mostly F-6, with F-5 in its added photographic squadron

9th Air force P-51 credited with 750 enemy aircraft destroyed in the air, F-6 135 destroyed in the air, P-51 reconnaissance 2 destroyed in the air

 

[Reluctant Poster]

My understanding is the 354th was converted to P-47 for a time due to a lack of available P-51. The 9th Air Force in the UK started with 1 P-51, gained 1,164, lost 955 (both all causes including transfers etc.) to end up with 210 for its then 2 P-51 groups as the 370th had converted from P-38.

Air 40/1096 Statistical Summary of 9th Air Force Operations 16 Oct 1943 to 8 May 1945,
"The Ninth Air Force acquired on its arrival in England in October 1943 four under-strength medium bombardment groups from VIII Air Support Command and one troop carrier group. From then until June 1944 there was a gradually accelerated build-up until on D Day, the air force achieved its all-time maximum strength of eight medium and three light bombardment groups, 18 fighter groups, 14 troop carrier groups (lost in August to First Allied Airborne Army), and two reconnaissance groups consisting of four photo and four tactical reconnaissance squadrons. Aircraft numbered 7500, consisting of 4546 tactical, 2679 gliders and 575 utility types; and there were 5337 combat crews, including 990 bomber crews, 2032 fighter crews, 214 reconnaissance and 2101 troop carrier and glider crews. The averages of 663 tactical aircraft and the small overage in combat crews were quickly reduced when extensive operations were started. Combat losses immediately wiped out the excess fighter and reconnaissance aircraft and insufficient replacements created a critical shortage which existed until V-E Day despite the fact that some groups were converted to aircraft models which had a larger replacement flow. An overage of bombers was maintained throughout the period of operations, however, mainly due to the flow of A-26 aircraft for the conversion of B-26 and A-20 groups. The air force aircraft authorization per group was increased in 5ovember 1944 to counteract the delayed deliveries from distant United Kingdom ports to airstrips. Combat crews created no problem as there was very generally an overage in all units.

On the completion of the combat mission of the air force, the aircraft authorization was decreased to unit equipment, with authority to retain all excess in the air force for the present."

The 9th Air Force in World War II by Kenn C Rust "A minor tragedy occurred... The 354th... was ordered to give up its Mustangs and reequip with P-47... There was much gnashing of teeth among the proud pilots."

354th FG arrived 1-Dec-43 to 22-Nov-44 with P-51 from 22-Nov-44 to 15-Feb-45 with P-47 from 15-Feb-45 to 31-May-45 with P-51
363rd FG arrived 24-Feb-44 to 10-Sep-44 with P-51 became 363rd TRG equipped with mostly F-6, with F-5 in its added photographic squadron

9th Air force P-51 credited with 750 enemy aircraft destroyed in the air, F-6 135 destroyed in the air, P-51 reconnaissance 2 destroyed in the air

If I was going to pick a P 51 group to convert to the P47 it wouldn't be the 354 which was the first group to take the Merlin P51 into action and was at least the second highest scoring P 51 unit of the entire war. Surely some lesser group should have suffered the indignity. In fact it should have been transferred into the 8th. A waste of valuable experience

 

[drgondog]

Do you have the story behind the least successful P51 group (363)? I have read different versions

leadership and training. Technically speaking, for Mustang VCs the 332nd was lower as the 99th FS had several P-40 VCs before they joined the 332nd.

 

[Geoffrey Sinclair]

As far as the 9th Air Force is concerned on operational P-51 units: 354th FG from 1 December 1943, 363rd FG from 24 February 1944 giving it 2 groups, then on 10 September 1944 the 363rd became a TRG and largely gave up its P-51, bringing the 9th AF down to 1 P-51 Group, unable to keep that at strength, changed it to P-47 on 22 November 1944, back to P-51 on 15 February 1945, on 9 March 1945 the 370th FG transitioned to P-51 from P-38, the 367th had gone to P-47 from P-38 on 20 February.

In November 1944 the 9th reports its average authorised fighter strength was 1,473 of which it had 1,351, with 996 in units and 830 operational, pilot position was 1,863 authorised, 2,147 present, 1,594 in tactical units, around 1.6 to 1 pilots to aircraft.

8th Air Force still had 4 P-47 groups as of 28 September 1944, to 3.5 groups on 2 October, 3 groups 11 November, 2.5 groups 20 November, 2 groups 30 November, 1.5 groups 16 December, 1 group on 5 January 1945, where 0.5 indicates the unit was transitioning.

The 9th Air force report Close escort sorties airborne, to escort:
17,091 Fighter Bombers
23,061 Medium Bombers
14,105 Heavy Bombers
1,723 Troop Carrier
1,658 Light Bombers
I would expect most of the heavy bomber escort sorties were in the first half of 1944.

 

[drgondog]

As far as the 9th Air Force is concerned on operational P-51 units: 354th FG from 1 December 1943, 363rd FG from 24 February 1944 giving it 2 groups, then on 10 September 1944 the 363rd became a TRG and largely gave up its P-51, bringing the 9th AF down to 1 P-51 Group, unable to keep that at strength, changed it to P-47 on 22 November 1944, back to P-51 on 15 February 1945, on 9 March 1945 the 370th FG transitioned to P-51 from P-38, the 367th had gone to P-47 from P-38 on 20 February.

In November 1944 the 9th reports its average authorised fighter strength was 1,473 of which it had 1,351, with 996 in units and 830 operational, pilot position was 1,863 authorised, 2,147 present, 1,594 in tactical units, around 1.6 to 1 pilots to aircraft.

8th Air Force still had 4 P-47 groups as of 28 September 1944, to 3.5 groups on 2 October, 3 groups 11 November, 2.5 groups 20 November, 2 groups 30 November, 1.5 groups 16 December, 1 group on 5 January 1945, where 0.5 indicates the unit was transitioning.

The 9th Air force report Close escort sorties airborne, to escort:
17,091 Fighter Bombers
23,061 Medium Bombers
14,105 Heavy Bombers
1,723 Troop Carrier
1,658 Light Bombers
I would expect most of the heavy bomber escort sorties were in the first half of 1944.

The 363rd retained Mustangs but converted to F-6. Both the 10th and 67th TRG also equipped w/F-6.

 

[Geoffrey Sinclair]

Data from the 9th Air Force in World war II by Kenn C Rust and the 9th Air Force report.

The reconnaissance units operated by the 9th Air Force changed their compositions a few times. Pre D-Day the 67th TRG had 4 squadrons of F-6 and the 10th PRG had 4 F-5 and then was given an F-3 squadron on 7 June. In June they swapped two F-5 for F-6 squadrons making them a mixture, in September came the 363rd TRG which had 3 F-6 and was given an F-5 squadron. With the arrival of 7th Army the 1st Tactical Air Force was formed and the 9th (Provisional) Recon Group came into being (operational 11 October 1944) while various moves of units between the two air forces occurred. The 69th TRG arrived in March 1945, apparently with 2 squadrons and was given 2 others already in theatre.

Rust lists 5 PR and 10 TR squadrons and it looks like the idea was each group regardless of title would have PR and TR units under command, the PR being 1 F-3 and 4 F-5, the TR being F-6. At squadron level the equipment was uniform, at group level it was mixed.

On top of this the 9th (Provisional) Weather Reconnaissance Squadron with P-51 reconnaissance aircraft became operational on 20 August 1944.

For the war the 9th Air Force recorded, airborne sorties, 641 F-3, 7,530 F-5, 24,784 F-6 and 1,611 P-51 reconnaissance. It also records the transfer of 479 P-51 to other air forces in 1944, no idea how many transfers to it.

 

[spicmart]

How do the various Fw 190D versions (D-9 to D-15; Jumo 213 and DB 603 powered) fare against the latest Allied fighters,
especially compared to Griffon Spitfires?