Average sorties/kill for German night fighters

[Tinstaafl]

I'm interested, how efficient the German night fighters were during the second half of WW2 in terms of combat sorties/kill, both claimed and estimated to actually happen. I've searched the internet pretty extensively, but I was not able to find any dependable data on it. I would also like to know, how those numbers compare to sorties/kill for the day fighters in the same period, for which I can find data about actual USAAF losses, but not for sorties flown by Luftwaffe. I'm interested mostly in raw numbers dealing with night fighters, but I'm also interested in comparing night and day fighter efficiency and in trying to find out, how big impact the successive improvement of radar and ECM technologies actually had on those numbers.

 

[GregP]

Although it doesn't seem like it should be so, finding detailed data about WWII is quite difficult.

You can easily find data for some particular action or battle, but overall data from the war, broken out by such things as day or night fighters, is very hard to find.

At least for me, that is.

Best of luck. If you find data, please share the source.

 

[Snautzer01]

Google: writer, Theo Boiten , nachjagd.
Untill now un surpassed.
Losses and victories

Yes , it can be done.

 

[bf109xxl]

Some data can be found here:

 

[Snautzer01]

Some data can be found here:
View attachment 781446

Yup. True.

 

[bf109xxl]

Google: writer, Theo Boiten , nachjagd.

Seems, that his "Nachtjagd Combat Archive" should be the most comprehensive source.

 

[Geoffrey Sinclair]

Published figures for night fighter losses, claims and allied losses have been around for decades, for example Adders The German Night Fighter Force. Sorties are another matter. E.R. Hooton in Eagle in Flames has night fighter sorties for the year of 1944 taken from Luftwaffe activity Volume I (Imperial War Museum Air Historical Branch 6, Tin 192, frame 1052, reporting 20,284 sorties by Luftflotte Reich taking 664 losses, and 3,091 sorties by Luftflotte 3 taking 142 sorties, which would mean about a claim every 11 sorties based on Adders.

The Luftwaffe night fighter claim system became less rigid in the late 1943 period, the list of kill claims versus RAF losses in Adders gives the Bomber Command night losses versus Luftwaffe kill claims as year / RAF losses / RAF write offs / Luftwaffe kill claims / % of RAF total losses + write offs claimed by night fighters

1940 / 271 / 124 / 42 / 10.6%
1941 / 756 / 333 / 421 / 38.7%
1942 / 1390 / 89 / 687 / 46.5%
1943 / 2255 / 94 / 1816 / 77.3%
1944 / 2349 / 85 / 2235 / 91.8%
1945 / 507 / 61 / 529 / 93.1%

The effectiveness of the Flak force did not decline that much, and Bomber Command still had accidents resulting in write offs that had nothing to do with combat. The accident rate declined during the war but the number of sorties per month went up. Also Bomber Command did not go as deep into Germany, on average, after March 1944 and the loss of the early warning Atlantic Coast radars hurt interception chances.

 

[Nick Beale]

Comparison between air forces is difficult. For example the RAF and USAAF had much better radars than the Luftwaffe but far fewer potential targets. The RAF got its first kill with airborne radar in July 1940, something the Luftwaffe didn't achieve until August 1941.

 

[Tinstaafl]

Sorry for being late getting back here, but I got crazy busy in RL.

Google: writer, Theo Boiten , nachjagd.
Untill now un surpassed.
Losses and victories

Yes , it can be done.

I've been able to preview 6 pages of Boiten's Nachtjagd Combat Archive - 1943 - Part 3, and it seems to contain exactly the info, that I'm looking for. Unfortunately there is no single copy of this book in any public library in Poland. I will have to check with Polish Aviation Museum in Cracow, if they have one by any chance.

If they don't, sadly it doesn't make much sense for me to buy it, as I travel a lot and can't keep a library. Unless I decide to be very generous one day, buy it and later donate to Museum's library. Or maybe one day it will come out in ebook format.

Anyway, thank a lot for pointing me to this incredible book.

Published figures for night fighter losses, claims and allied losses have been around for decades, for example Adders The German Night Fighter Force. Sorties are another matter. E.R. Hooton in Eagle in Flames has night fighter sorties for the year of 1944 taken from Luftwaffe activity Volume I (Imperial War Museum Air Historical Branch 6, Tin 192, frame 1052, reporting 20,284 sorties by Luftflotte Reich taking 664 losses, and 3,091 sorties by Luftflotte 3 taking 142 sorties, which would mean about a claim every 11 sorties based on Adders.

The Luftwaffe night fighter claim system became less rigid in the late 1943 period, the list of kill claims versus RAF losses in Adders gives the Bomber Command night losses versus Luftwaffe kill claims as year / RAF losses / RAF write offs / Luftwaffe kill claims / % of RAF total losses + write offs claimed by night fighters
(...)
1944 / 2349 / 85 / 2235 / 91.8%
(...)
The effectiveness of the Flak force did not decline that much, and Bomber Command still had accidents resulting in write offs that had nothing to do with combat. The accident rate declined during the war but the number of sorties per month went up. Also Bomber Command did not go as deep into Germany, on average, after March 1944 and the loss of the early warning Atlantic Coast radars hurt interception chances.

Thank you very much, those are generally the numbers, that I've been looking for. Claims seem seriously exaggerated for 1944 and 1945, should we assume something close to 60% of losses to be caused by the night fighters, putting the real kills at ~1.4k? Also would you know, if daylight sorties of night fighters are included in those totals?

 

[taly01]

A nice little book that lists German day and night fighter missions and kill/mission etc is Luftwaffe Fighter Aces: The Exploits and Tactics of Germany's Greatest Pilots - by Spick, Mike. Its a small novella size book with several reprints. The "best" aces were getting close to 1 kill mission, but the highest scorers were more often at 1:2 or 1:3 kill/mission.

A good book for what you want is German Night Fighter Force 1917-1945, by Gebhard Aders which also lists alot by year and month losses/kills etc It has lots of tables and data in back of book.

 

[Geoffrey Sinclair]

Took a while to find the Aders notes. The figures I posted are Reich/West at night.
Reich/West day claims 1 in 1941, 4 in 1942, 110 in 1943 and 100 in 1944
Night claims Mediterranean 5 in 1941, 51 in 1942, 45 in 1943 and 2 in 1944
Night claims East 38 in 1942, 425 in 1943, 545 in 1944 and 73 in 1945
Appendix 8 is monthly claims versus Bomber Command sorties, missing and write offs, from July 1940.

 

[gruad]

The real solution to this is for individuals to post a history of individual aircraft with a full story of what happened to that aircraft. Obviously most well-known ones are the easy ones to do, but eventually people would get around the entirety of all the aircraft in world war II.
Eventually, you would take the stories and use an AI which would be sophisticated enough by that point to generate tables of statistics on the basis of the information contained within the stories.

But that's probably years away...

 

[Tinstaafl]

Sorry for taking so long to answer again, but I've been crazy busy RL and I've kept all of my internet activities on hold. Thanks again for all the answers, which got me a much better inside into this stuff and also allowed me to find some more stuff on the net. I still don't expect for quite a while to have much time to study this further, but...

(...) A good book for what you want is German Night Fighter Force 1917-1945, by Gebhard Aders which also lists a lot by year and month losses/kills etc It has lots of tables and data in back of book.

... this may actually give me all data, that I'm looking for. Fortunately it's possible to borrow this book on Internet Archive. It's also dirt cheap on sale for just £6.99 with £4.25 shipping in UK... unfortunately the shipping is £12.5/13.5 in EU/rest of the world. Still, the total price is much more affordable, than Boiten's, so after borrowing it, I may decide to buy it.

 

[gruad]

Sorties are another matter. E.R. Hooton in Eagle in Flames has night fighter sorties for the year of 1944 taken from Luftwaffe activity Volume I (Imperial War Museum Air Historical Branch 6, Tin 192, frame 1052, reporting 20,284 sorties by Luftflotte Reich taking 664 losses, and 3,091 sorties by Luftflotte 3 taking 142 sorties, which would mean about a claim every 11 sorties based on Adders.

So Nightfighter losses 1944 were 664 + 142 = 806.

But RAF losses were

he Luftwaffe night fighter claim system became less rigid in the late 1943 period, the list of kill claims versus RAF losses in Adders gives the Bomber Command night losses versus Luftwaffe kill claims as year / RAF losses / RAF write offs / Luftwaffe kill claims / % of RAF total losses + write offs claimed by night fighters

1940 / 271 / 124 / 42 / 10.6%
1941 / 756 / 333 / 421 / 38.7%
1942 / 1390 / 89 / 687 / 46.5%
1943 / 2255 / 94 / 1816 / 77.3%
1944 / 2349 / 85 / 2235 / 91.8%
1945 / 507 / 61 / 529 / 93.1%

Ie 2434

So 1 Nightfighter loss per 3 Bombers. This is not insignificant and runs contrary to the idea that the defences of the bombers were puny (admittedly mosquito escorts by then).

I believe the day time figure was two day fighters per bomber which makes the allied daytime force 6x more destructive but the night assets being twin engined and packed with radar and crew were probably twice as valuable.

This you have a ratio of destruction to the Lw or USAAF : RAF in bombers lost as approx 3:1

Again given a US bomber cost 2X RAF Bomber you have an effectiveness ratio of 3:2

So I think RAF role in destruction of Lw is highly underrated.

What do those more expert than me think? I may be guilty of distortion too...

 

[Geoffrey Sinclair]

Be careful what night losses are included, they are probably all cause, rather than just fighter versus bomber combats.

In 1943 the USAAF heavy bombers shot down, on average, around 2 fighters for every 3 bombers lost to fighters, in early 1944, after the Luftwaffe day fighters increased their firepower it was 1 fighter per 2 bombers. When you add other cause bomber losses, USAAF fighter claims and losses etc. ratios change again.

Using W.R. Chorley Bomber Command lost 1,501 aircraft on night operations January to May 1944, 146 not due to enemy action and another 121 have no given cause.

January to May 1944 saw the USAAF in the ETO report 1,615 heavy bomber losses on operations, 1,012 to enemy aircraft, 447 to flak, 156 to other causes, along with 983 fighters, 557 to enemy aircraft, 223 to flak, 203 to other causes.

Meantime according to the Luftwaffe Quartermaster Luftflotte Reich lost 526 night fighters, 254 to enemy action, 1,916 single engine day fighters, 1,404 to enemy action, and 301 twin engine day fighters, 216 to enemy action. Add Luftflotte 3 losses and other RAF commands.

 

[gruad]

January to May 1944 saw the USAAF in the ETO report 1,615 heavy bomber losses on operations, 1,012 to enemy aircraft, 447 to flak, 156 to other causes, along with 983 fighters, 557 to enemy aircraft, 223 to flak, 203 to other causes.

Meantime according to the Luftwaffe Quartermaster Luftflotte Reich lost 526 night fighters, 254 to enemy action, 1,916 single engine day fighters, 1,404 to enemy action, and 301 twin engine day fighters, 216 to enemy action. Add Luftflotte 3 losses and other RAF commands

Taking overall casualties and for Jan to May we have

For USAAF we have 1916 + 301= 2217 Lw losses for fighters for 1,615 bombers or loss ratio 2217/1615 = 1.38 fighter per bomber

in early 1944, after the Luftwaffe day fighters increased their firepower it was 1 fighter per 2 bombers

So the above is very different from your quoted ratio.


Or is it? I have the greatest respect for you as this is probably the case!

 

[Geoffrey Sinclair]

ETO January to May 1944.

Since the reported Luftwaffe losses include accidents on combat sorties and losses on non combat sorties, if you really want to calculate some sort of total cost of air war in terms of aircraft total losses. Luftflotte Reich 2,217 day fighters lost, 8th Air Force 1,615 heavy bomber losses on operations and around 135 not on operations. My losses list says 75 B-17 non combat mission losses (includes lost on ground), with a similar but smaller number of B-24. Thereby arriving at 1.27 all cause fighter loss to 1 all causes heavy bomber loss.

If you just want to do combat losses and assume USAAF other cause losses were not caused by the enemy, then it is 1,440+216 = 1,656 to 1,459 or 1.13 to 1. Assume the other cause losses were say flak and fighter combined, battle damage of undetermined origin etc. and it is 1,656 fighters to 1,615 bombers, 1.025 to 1.

Since most attention is on combat caused losses and again assuming the USAAF other cause figures are not combat related then the 5 months of air combat January to May 1944 cost the USAAF 1,459 heavy bombers and 780 fighters, total 2,239 against Luftflotte Reich 1,620 day fighters, the Germans clearly won in terms of number of losses, won bigger in terms of cost of lost equipment and very much bigger in terms of personnel casualties. Drop that to air to air combat only, assuming every Luftwaffe fighter combat loss was a shoot down, it is 1,569 USAAF losses to 1,620 Luftwaffe, almost even, with the Germans ahead in material terms and way ahead in personnel terms.

The Luftwaffe put up a strong defence of Germany in the first months of 1944 but could not replace its personnel casualties while keeping up average aircrew quality, the USAAF could.

All this of course excludes Luftflotte 3, the RAF and the reality an increasing number of USAAF fighter losses were not on heavy bomber escort missions as the 9th Air Force switched over to invasion preparation. It means all the above are guides, not absolutes, to the way the Luftwaffe day fighter force did not go away without a long fight which cost the USAAF in particular a great deal.

With nothing else in the sky, nor flak nor things like vultures present (they shot down a number of Hurricanes in India, though the Hurricanes always shot down the attacking vulture) when a Luftwaffe fighter formation and an 8th Air Force heavy bomber formation fought each other in 1943 on average 2 fighters were shot down for 3 bombers, in early 1944 that shifted to 1 fighter to 2 bombers. The USAAF damaged aircraft reports noting the increase in average Luftwaffe fighter firepower in early 1944. The numbers are as explained pure air to air, fighter versus heavy bomber, nothing else.