A look at German fighter Ace kill claims (1 Viewer)

[CHen10]

Do you honestly mean what you're saying?
Are you being deliberately obtuse ?

There's plenty of reasons for people at several levels to massage the paperwork.
At the lower levels, and all the way up, higher than norm losses can be seen as a indication of incompetence, or as the Soviets termed it, sabotage.
It could easily mean a appointment with a firing squad.
You seem to have no idea was that time in the Soviet Union was like.

Sorry but you are using the old Cold War excuse that "Nothing the Soviets say can be trusted".

Funnily enough Soviet records are actually better than US records. Soviet records include lots of details and while the US records are of course really good, they aren't quite as good as the Soviet ones.

It seems the only people who question the Soviet aircraft loss reports are people who have never seen them.

I don't mean this to sound rude because I genuinely don't want it to sound rude, but it's quite clear you don't know this subject.

I am well aware the last sentence sounds really arrogant but I don't know how else to word it so sorry for that.

 

[CHen10]

Something about production, don't recall exactly. Don't forget that also Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn was also a fervent communist artillery lieutenant in the GPW and that didn't save him for been an inhabitant of the archipiélago.

Sounds interesting but that sounds like more a situation where a person is giving out mass statistics rather than individual ones because he works in a factory mass producing things. His figures might have contradicted propaganda.

 

[tyrodtom]

Sorry but you are using the old Cold War excuse that "Nothing the Soviets say can be trusted".

Funnily enough Soviet records are actually better than US records. Soviet records include lots of details and while the US records are of course really good, they aren't quite as good as the Soviet ones.

It seems the only people who question the Soviet aircraft loss reports are people who have never seen them.

I don't mean this to sound rude because I genuinely don't want it to sound rude, but it's quite clear you don't know this subject.

I am well aware the last sentence sounds really arrogant but I don't know how else to word it so sorry for that.

I haven't lived in the Soviet Union even a day .
But as a teenager the church I went to sponsored refugees, both from WW2 , and the early cold war.
One was a Hungarian whose last name I can't remember, his first name was Janos, but he wanted to be called just Jim.
He was about 30 when I knew him, and had escaped from Hungary after their uprising in 1956 in his middle 20's.
His father had been drafted into the Hungarian army during WW2, and fought and died fighting on the wrong side.
So Janos's family was not popular with the new regime once the Soviets took over.
He fought in the Hungarian uprising in 56 and escaped by sheer luck and daring.
I saw him as an extra big brother.
He would give lectures at the church I went to and at school.
Very little about his time as a Freedom Fighter, but a lot about the Soviet system in daily life.

How you never knew who to trust, because there was so many secret informers. Some of whom was just as much victims as the people they informed on.
And he wasn't the only person I've known that grew up under a Communist regime, he's just the one I knew best.
One of my niece's husband grew up in East Germany. And others.

Maybe I am arrogant, but at 77 I just can't get myself to trust any information that was a product of such a system.

 

[CHen10]

I haven't lived in the Soviet Union even a day .
But as a teenager the church I went to sponsored refugees, both from WW2 , and the early cold war.
One was a Hungarian whose last name I can't remember, his first name was Janos, but he wanted to be called just Jim.
He was about 30 when I knew him, and had escaped from Hungary after their uprising in 1956 in his middle 20's.
His father had been drafted into the Hungarian army during WW2, and fought and died fighting on the wrong side.
So Janos's family was not popular with the new regime once the Soviets took over.
He fought in the Hungarian uprising in 56 and escaped by sheer luck and daring.
I saw him as an extra big brother.
He would give lectures at the church I went to and at school.
Very little about his time as a Freedom Fighter, but a lot about the Soviet system in daily life.

How you never knew who to trust, because there was so many secret informers. Some of whom was just as much victims as the people they informed on.
And he wasn't the only person I've known that grew up under a Communist regime, he's just the one I knew best.
One of my niece's husband grew up in East Germany. And others.

Maybe I am arrogant, but at 77 I just can't get myself to trust any information that was a product of such a system.

The Royal Hungarian Air Force in ww2 is something I research a lot, so it's interesting to hear a story from Hungary.

Also I think you misunderstood my last message, I wasn't calling you arrogant, I was saying my message sounded a little arrogant but I didn't know how else to word it.

 

[tyrodtom]

You can't hurt my feelings, don't worry about it.

 

[Dimlee]

I haven't read it in a long time, but in the book of the same name, Solzhenitsyn uses (iirc) the word nalevno, meaning (again, iirc) "on the left" -- meaning, a construction-boss who was stealing concrete, say, from a new building would doctor the paperwork so that his superiors would look at the books and not initiate legal action.

Then one or more of the workers might pinch a piece of lumber or two, and the supervisor would be on the hook for that, so again would massage the numbers so that his superiors would be none the wiser.

Then the building would be opened for inhabitation, and five years later be falling apart because parts of it were weak.

Not saying this was the state in wartime USSR in the military, but it was a common enough practice that it had slang for it. Dimlee , please correct any or all of this post.

We see this same sort of graft in the current war in Ukraine.

You are right. Just a small correction, it was "nalevo". Indeed, such cases were widespread and occasionally led to mass tragedies, for example, during earthquakes.

In the military, it happened as well. The system of control was supposed to be stricter and the people were more responsible. But, after all, the army (navy, etc) was an integral part of the society.
My period of military service was short (actually, an extended training). A diesel submarine with cruise missiles in the Black Sea Navy. "Bring some warm clothes", we were told. "A temperature inside the torpedo compartment is equal to the temperature of the seawater". It was November. As good students who knew the design and equipment of this submarine, we were surprised. "What about the heating system?", we asked. "Ah, yeah. There were electric heaters... Shamelessly stolen", that was the answer from the Chief Officer.

 

[SaparotRob]

...

In the military, it happened as well. The system of control was supposed to be stricter and the people were more responsible. But, after all, the army (navy, etc) was an integral part of the society.
My period of military service was short (actually, an extended training). A diesel submarine with cruise missiles in the Black Sea Navy. "Bring some warm clothes", we were told. "A temperature inside the torpedo compartment is equal to the temperature of the seawater". It was November. As good students who knew the design and equipment of this submarine, we were surprised. "What about the heating system?", we asked. "Ah, yeah. There were electric heaters... Shamelessly stolen", that was the answer from the Chief Officer.

If you have any stories that you could share, I'd love to read it.

 

[Dimlee]

Why would the individual choose to buy his way out instead just filing the report?

Just curious what circumstances would mean they would be forgiven?

If they're gonna be executed for failing to document losses, wouldn't that agree with my point there was an incentive to get things correct? Maybe I misunderstood.

1. Because the filing of the report could get him in trouble. "Party and People entrusted you with expensive equipment. Where is it? Damaged, why? Enemy action? Do you want to say that the enemy is strong and you are weak? Do you want to say that the Party made a mistake promoting you to such an important position?" Etc.
It sounds weird and comical in 2024. It was a grim reality, especially in the 1930s-1950s. Not every day, not for everyone. But it was a danger that everyone was aware of. You were "guilty by default".

2. Let's say, your commander is a smart leader with a certain influence. Probably, he was in your place. He will cover you.
In certain situations, such as the catastrophe of the Red Army in the summer of 1941, the whole system would give up - temporarily. See my earlier comment about the "unaccounted loss" category in VVS statistics of 1941.

3. If you know that you can be severely punished by filing the real information, you have an incentive to cover things up.

 

[Dimlee]

He was about 30 when I knew him, and had escaped from Hungary after their uprising in 1956 in his middle 20's.

I admire Hungarians who fought in 1956. Years ago, one blogger a friend of mine, asked his readers what picture they would suggest as a symbol of the fight for Freedom. I didn't hesitate in my choice. Erika Kornelia Szeles, 15 year old soldier.

Erika Szeles — The Female Soldier

Erika Szeles was a young soldier and nurse in the Hungarian Revolution of 1956 . When her photo was taken by a Danish photographer her image graced the covers of several European magazines and she became an international symbol of the revolution. Szeles was born to Jewish parents in 1941 and rais

thefemalesoldier.com

 

[Juha3]

Do you honestly mean what you're saying?
Are you being deliberately obtuse ?

There's plenty of reasons for people at several levels to massage the paperwork.
At the lower levels, and all the way up, higher than norm losses can be seen as a indication of incompetence, or as the Soviets termed it, sabotage.
It could easily mean a appointment with a firing squad.
You seem to have no idea was that time in the Soviet Union was like.

But still, if one didn't report the losses, he could not ask for replacements. If your unit is understreght because of that, at some point one was not able to carry out the missions one was ordered to and you'll be exposed at the latest, probably earlier because the lack of planes would have been easily noticed. A lot of combat losses could not be attributed to technical faults, because then the TO of the unit would have been suddenly brought in for questioning and would hardly have accepted the charge of sabotage to save the unit's commander's ass. The sentence for sabotage was easily death.

 

[special ed]

Just a brief drift - I have mentioned in another thread of a young man who came to work with our company, who escaped from Czechoslovakia 1968 with two friends. The three went to Paris where they noticed they were followed. Tom and one friend came to the US, while the other stayed in Paris. After several months in the US, Tom and his friend here no longer heard from the Paris friend.
While in high school, late 50s, a girl whose family escaped Hungary during the rebellion, enrolled in our senior year. She didn't talk about the old country.

 

[CHen10]

But still, if one didn't report the losses, he could not ask for replacements. If your unit is understreght because of that, at some point one was not able to carry out the missions one was ordered to and you'll be exposed at the latest, probably earlier because the lack of planes would have been easily noticed. A lot of combat losses could not be attributed to technical faults, because then the TO of the unit would have been suddenly brought in for questioning and would hardly have accepted the charge of sabotage to save the unit's commander's ass. The sentence for sabotage was easily death.

I agree completely. This is more proof you can't lie about losses.

 

[GregP]

No it isn't. It is proof the reports are VERY suspect.

If you can't perform your mission, you chalk up the losses to a single enemy strike on the airfield that wipes out your unreported losses and file for replacements.

Alternately, several complete airfields surrendered when they were surrounded and under cover by rifles and machine guns. Not the first choice, to be sure, but many people will choose to live rather than to die needlessly for a system they don't trust.

Mind you, the Germans were not noted for mercy to Russians, nor the converse, so the choice might be about even, all things considered.

 

[BiffF15]

I think P-39 Expert has been reincarnated…

You guys are wasting your time, breath, keystrokes IMO.

 

[CHen10]

No it isn't. It is proof the reports are VERY suspect.

If you can't perform your mission, you chalk up the losses to a single enemy strike on the airfield that wipes out your unreported losses and file for replacements.

Alternately, several complete airfields surrendered when they were surrounded and under cover by rifles and machine guns. Not the first choice, to be sure, but many people will choose to live rather than to die needlessly for a system they don't trust.

Mind you, the Germans were not noted for mercy to Russians, nor the converse, so the choice might be about even, all things considered.

Your posts are getting more and more ridiculous. It is clear you have no idea what you're talking about.

There seems to be two possible scenarios happening here:

1. You can't handle the fact that some pilots had lots of overclaims, because it ruins the idea you have about a pilot's victory tally.

2. You are deliberately being dense because it's a fun way of trolling.


My side has facts and proof

Your side is literally just nonsensical hypothetical arguments, your opinions and no facts at all.

 

[CHen10]

You guys are wasting your time, breath, keystrokes IMO.

You're right here.

I am wasting my time talking to people who don't know anything about this subject.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Sigh…

 

[rochie]

Round and round and round....................

 

[Juha3]

No it isn't. It is proof the reports are VERY suspect.

If you can't perform your mission, you chalk up the losses to a single enemy strike on the airfield that wipes out your unreported losses and file for replacements.

Alternately, several complete airfields surrendered when they were surrounded and under cover by rifles and machine guns. Not the first choice, to be sure, but many people will choose to live rather than to die needlessly for a system they don't trust.

Mind you, the Germans were not noted for mercy to Russians, nor the converse, so the choice might be about even, all things considered.

LOL, and nobody would wonder what attack. Air surveillance, others operating at the field such as other squadrons, AA and maintenance units, etc. When, for example, a higher maintenance echelon asked their unit operating at the field why they hadn't reported the devastating attack on the field and the measures it required and possible losses, and got an answer, what attack? After that, your hero would probably have a nice chat over a cup of tea with a NKVD or whatever agency handles those things, interrogator or what.

Re my guestion in my reply #452, what you think, how many Wellingtons were shot down on 18 December 1939?

 

[bf109xxl]

1. The amount of "unaccounted", over 5,000 aircraft.

This is just something that could not be accounted for in the chaos of the retreat of the summer of 1941. Higher commanders had no communication with the units, so they had no information about the causes of losses or their number. But the total loss had to be labeled somehow.....