GregP
Major
That's your opinion and it's starting to get entertaining.
I am somewhat of a bull sh___tter myself but, occasionally, I like to listen to a professional.
Please carry on.
A look at German fighter Ace kill claims
- Thread starter RCAFson
- Start date
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I am somewhat of a bull sh___tter myself but, occasionally, I like to listen to a professional.
Please carry on.
Come on everyone, lets keep it cool.
My recommendation, everyone just simply move on. Its clear that neither side will budge. This will just continue to go round and round, and eventually fall into fighting and name calling again.
My recommendation, everyone just simply move on. Its clear that neither side will budge. This will just continue to go round and round, and eventually fall into fighting and name calling again.
SaparotRob
Unter Gemeine Geschwader Murmeltier XIII
And as one myself, I endorse this message.
SaparotRob
Unter Gemeine Geschwader Murmeltier XIII
But that's the best part!
GregP
Major
Worst I'll call him is a forum member.
And, if we disagree, which we do, that seems to be the nature of discussion between people with opposing views. The real issue is near 80 years in the past anyway, how important can it be?
Cheers.
And, if we disagree, which we do, that seems to be the nature of discussion between people with opposing views. The real issue is near 80 years in the past anyway, how important can it be?
Cheers.
I removed your other post because it was unnecessarily using specific words that will only incite a fight. Don't make our job harder please.
I lost my cool twice in this thread already. My views have not changed either, so I just take a step back. Its not worth it.
Sigh…
A few more posts removed.
I literally just asked both sides to chill. Its not hard. If I can do it, you all can.
One more insult, jab, personal attack, childish comment, or snide comment and there won't be any posting by that person in this thread going forward.
A few more posts removed.
I literally just asked both sides to chill. Its not hard. If I can do it, you all can.
One more insult, jab, personal attack, childish comment, or snide comment and there won't be any posting by that person in this thread going forward.
I had to respond to that final post by Greg because it was so funny.
Since I wasn't sure if Greg's post was going to be removed, I responded myself.
But since you removed his post, I agree with you removing my post.
No you didn't have to. Just like he shouldn't have. Just like I am not doing. We don't need a "Well he said this first" Kindergarten atmosphere going on.
ALL PARTIES were told to stop before these posts were made.
Totally agree,
It's time to let this post die by itself.
All parties have provided their view on the subject, there is only one way it can go further and it's not a pretty one.
I Wonder how many Flak will i get when i'll finish my books about the RaF channel operations 41->43, cause the english overclaim was like a daily sickness in this period, going from 50% overclaim until 300%...
Ps: I totally agree with Dimlee. Being born and having grown in a communist country, everything he said just pop-up some memories of real-life situations.
Escuadrilla Azul
Tech Sergeant
- 1,825
- Feb 27, 2020
Which books are them? Is any published already? I think is a subject that nowadays is kind of neglected, like heavy air fight in the ETO in 1940 and them nothing till the 8 AF arrived in mid 1942 and the just bombing Germany from 1943.I Wonder how many Flak will i get when i'll finish my books about the RaF channel operations 41->43, cause the english overclaim was like a daily sickness in this period, going from 50% overclaim until 300%...
I Wonder how many Flak will i get when i'll finish my books about the RaF channel operations 41->43, cause the english overclaim was like a daily sickness in this period, going from 50% overclaim until 300%...
These books sound interesting. Is there any way you could let me know when they will be published? I would love to buy them.
Hi
I presume it may be referring to 'The RAF's Cross-Channel Offensive' by John Starkey (I can't comment on it as I have not read it yet).
There is also John Foreman's books (five volumes) 'Fighter Command War Diaries', Volume 2 and 3, that deal with this period, with claims losses and more. Norman L R Franks has also written a three volume work on 'Royal Air Force Fighter Command Losses of the Second World War'' Volume 1 and 2 cover the period. The same author also wrote 'The Greatest Air Battle, Dieppe, 19th August 1942', Chapter 14 'Summing Up' deals with claims/over claims and losses. The RAF losses at least are quite transparent.
Another book that may be of interest for the cross-channel operations is 'Group RAF, A Complete History, 1936-1945' by Michael J F Bowyer. This Group supplied many of the light bombers involved in Circus operations during the period concerned. I am sure there may be other books that deal with these operations.
I hope that is of use.
Mike
Mike, a good post but You miss the Group number in the title of Michael J F Bowyer's book '2 Group R.A.F., A Complete History, 1936-1945'
Yes and no.
The communication chaos in that period was partly handmade - on the RKKA side, and caused by the fear of reporting the truth.
Aircraft was a high-value asset with a special status which demanded a special attitude. It was (obviously) a very mobile asset. Careful research by post-Soviet historians revealed that many units had no problem with relocations to safe bases far away from the front lines. Many relocations were accompanied by unexplained (not combat) and undocumented losses.
Combat losses were high, of course. But lost aircraft didn't disappear together with ground-based commanders who knew the status of their units. In the absence of information as when the whole group was shot down (it happened during desperate SB-2 and DB-3 raids, for example), commanders were supposed to report lost aircraft at least as missing ("not returned").
Instead, "unaccounted" was chosen and accepted as a cover-up.
Escuadrilla Azul
Tech Sergeant
- 1,825
- Feb 27, 2020
Hi Mike.
Due to the wording I was asuming that B bada was writing some books about that but I could have misunderstood him.
I have John Starkey's book, but with some 237 pages of text including two chapters from 1914 till 1939, one for 1944&1945 and two examinations, is more an overview than a detailed account.
John Foreman's books look great but priced in the second hand market.
Norman Franks FC loses I thought it is just a list of airframes lost, isn't?
The Greatest Air Battle is good albeit just for one day and somewhat one sided (IMO) in the sense that the view from the german side is lacking, probably due to the date when it was written.
Michael J F Bowyer book is great for the 2nd Group, albeit my edition is 50 y.o.
Many thanks for the hints.
Luis
Your logic is perfect - for the system based on the logic. For VVS and the Soviet military in general your logic can be applied to some periods but not to others.
Imagine this situation: the sentence for sabotage is probably death but the sentence for reporting the truth is certainly death.
Imagine that you saw how your boss was taken out of the office by NKVD and disappeared.
(Just five examples from thousands)
Yakov Alksnis - Wikipedia
Aleksandr Loktionov - Wikipedia
Yakov Smushkevich - Wikipedia
Pavel Rychagov - Wikipedia
Alexander Novikov - Wikipedia
Hi
Always a problem when books become a bit too 'general', much is lost. A lot was going on during 1941-43 in the RAF besides circus, rhubarb etc operations, there were also the Coastal Command shipping attack ops (that could also include Hurribombers from Fighter Command in the Channel, there were also still various levels of German raiding on the UK during this time including hit and run raids (various books do cover this). Also CC maritime patrol ops over Atlantic and Biscay, not to mention BC and overseas ops. 'Johnnie' Johnson in his book 'Wing Leader' has his involvement on cross-channel ops, from his point of view of course. I am not sure if it has been covered much in German secondary sources.
Yes Franks' FC losses is mainly airframes lost but it also can give some info on which German units were involved, and if anyone is researching in detail on losses and claims it can have some use, extract below:
Mike
Hi,
I have those books (except the one about the 2nd group) and what i found that one is really generic (John Starkey) and gives a general view but nothing else and Franks' book well, looks more like a statistics digest than a book explaining the missions, but is a very good start.
So being interested in this period mainly started because it were the würger's years and i realy like the würger, i started with the JG26 books from Caldwell but then, when looking at the RaF side, there was no equal. So i started to dig, looking for books but not one fulfilled what i really wanted : a Day to Day Daylight operations record for the Raf, with Maps, flight-plans, timings , serial numbers, airplane models, pilots' names, losses, claims, target info (if present), etc, etc . So i downloaded 40Gig's of data from the national archives, Orbs and combat reports, the whole losses list from the german archives and other stuff found here and there and i will (try to) synthesize this data into a day to day view of each "mission" with the Luftwaffe action also present (Caldwell's Jg26 and Mombeek's JG2 books are really a must for anyone interested by the channel front).
For the moment, i'm working on the german losses, from original LW documents, for the Luftflotte2and3, throwing al the data manually into a database, so it would be easier to search and also to make statistics (i like stats) but it's seriously time consuming. 1month of LW losses can take up to 8hours work.
anyway, i limit myself to the FighterCommand (goup11+12) missions, and only the ones in day-time, so the intruders missions won't be there, nor the Coastal command.
It's my personal project i work on within my "free-time" so it won't be finished next month or even next year...
