Best radial fighter of '42

Vincenzo · May 20, 2009

Soren said:
Airbunny,

Although the Zero's vulnerability to enemy fire was too high this wasn't what made it obsolete, the Zero was simply too slow. Maneuverability at low medium speeds was excellent, but at high speeds the controls locked up. The climb rate was also good, but top speed was low, and the maximum allowed dive speed was a great deal slower than that of US fighters.

The type 0 was not too slow, saw their enemies in '41/42.

Soren · May 20, 2009

Vincenzo said:
The type 0 was not too slow, saw their enemies in '41/42.

What do you mean ? We're talking about 1943. By that time the Zero was too slow, and the low maximum dive speed and terrible roll rate at high speed really hampered it against the US fighters.

The fastest Zero was the A6M5 A6M5a with a top speed of 560+ km/h, and this type entered service in very late 1942. By comparison the F6F Hellcat had a top speed of 610 km/h, and was only inferior in agility and very slightly in climb rate. And the F4U Corsair was both much faster and climbed faster.

Vincenzo · May 20, 2009

Soren said:
What do you mean ? We're talking about 1943. By that time the Zero was too slow, and the low maximum dive speed and terrible roll rate at high speed really hampered it against the US fighters.

The fastest Zero was the A6M5 A6M5a with a top speed of 560+ km/h, and this type entered service in very late 1942. By comparison the F6F Hellcat had a top speed of 610 km/h, and was only inferior in agility and very slightly in climb rate. And the F4U Corsair was both much faster and climbed faster.

first where's write you talking of '43?
as easy see here also the A6M3 run at ~575 km/h (max emergengy) i don't think that M5 was slower. but surely the new, '43, US navy fighters take advantage on Type 0.

Soren · May 20, 2009

Vincenzo,

I was referring to Airbunny's post where he was talking about the Zero's competitiveness in 1943.

The Zero was the best fighter in the Pacific up until 1943 where the Hellcat made its' presence felt.

Elvis · May 20, 2009

Airbone Bunny said:
Thanks for the greetings

In any case, what I understand is that the Zero was great at the beginning of the war. But from 43 on, its vulnerability to enemy fire was evident. Later versions of the Zero tried to address those deficiencies incorporating armour, self sealed tanks, etc.

You 're welcome.

...and yes, just as with our own Brewster Buffalo, addressing those "deficiencies" was pretty much the downfall of that airplane.
The increased weight slowed it down and made it less manuverable and it was the Zero's manuverability and high (for the time) climb rate that were two of its greatest assets.

Elvis

renrich · May 22, 2009

The A6M may have been the best fighter in the Pacific until February 1943 when the F4U appeared before the Hellcat got into action. I believe the Hellcat first saw action on August 28, 1943. The Corsair on February 14, 1943.

Elvis · May 22, 2009

Yes, I believe you're correct.
The Corsair did enter service before the Hellcat.

...but an '09 Wright Flyer could run rings around that Zero!...as long as the speed was held to about 40 mph. (just kidding)

So I guess the consensus is that in the Eastern Theatre, the best radial fighter of '42 was the FW190 and in the Pacific Theatre, it was the Zero.

Right?

Elvis

Vincenzo · May 22, 2009

i'm agree. is beautiful if the great hohun can put on graphs data on speed, climb, turn of 190.

a question why not rolls rate on graphs?

thanks

HoHun · May 23, 2009

Hi Vincenzo,

>i'm agree. is beautiful if the great hohun can put on graphs data on speed, climb, turn of 190.

Hmmm ... here are some graphs, but though there is much data on the Fw 190, this doesn't mean that it's easy to make sense of it. I used the compressiblity-corrected Fw 190A-5 chart with the engine data from the Fw 190 Geschwindigkeitssteigerung chart, coarsely reverse-engineering a 2400 rpm power chart to match the Fw 190A-5 data, then plugging in the slightly different parameters for the Fw 190A-3. This is probably inaccurate, so don't say I didn't warn you!

>a question why not rolls rate on graphs?

Not much data, and it can't be easily calculated as it involves specific aerodynamics and structural considerations.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

Vincenzo · May 23, 2009

thanks, this is at combat and climb power setting?

Vincenzo · May 23, 2009

is some people has data on 190 can give it?

HoHun · May 23, 2009

Hi Vincenzo,

>thanks, this is at combat and climb power setting?

Yes. It appears that early in the history of the Fw 190A-3, full power was restricted for a while, so I chose this setting for the comparison.

Climb Combat is 1.32 ata/2400 rpm while Emergency Power is 1.42 ata/2700 rpm, so the performance increase from the higher setting would be quite significant.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

Soren · May 23, 2009

Would love to see a graph showing the difference though

Vincenzo · May 23, 2009

HoHun said:
Hi Vincenzo,

>thanks, this is at combat and climb power setting?

Yes. It appears that early in the history of the Fw 190A-3, full power was restricted for a while, so I chose this setting for the comparison.

No this trouble on A-4? if not saw the A-4 is on challenge we can put take off power setting for idea of A-4 performance

HoHun · May 23, 2009

Hi Vincenzo,

>No this trouble on A-4? if not saw the A-4 is on challenge we can put take off power setting for idea of A-4 performance

Hm, is the Fw 190A-4 a 1942 type?

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

Vincenzo · May 23, 2009

HoHun said:
Hi Vincenzo,

>No this trouble on A-4? if not saw the A-4 is on challenge we can put take off power setting for idea of A-4 performance

Hm, is the Fw 190A-4 a 1942 type?

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

Obv. yes, or i not put it in this challenge
..looking data, take a raondom unit, I/26, they lost, enemy related, the firsts A-4 in september '42

renrich · May 23, 2009

I agree that the FW in the ETO and the A6M in the PTO in 42 were the best with the F4F3 being a very close second in PTO only nosed out by A6M because of range. Pitting the FW versus the A6M would depend on mission. If 300 or more miles from base, A6M is much better. Close to base, FW probably slightly better. Did FW serve in North Africa in 1942?

Vincenzo · May 23, 2009

renrich said:
I agree that the FW in the ETO and the A6M in the PTO in 42 were the best with the F4F3 being a very close second in PTO only nosed out by A6M because of range. Pitting the FW versus the A6M would depend on mission. If 300 or more miles from base, A6M is much better. Close to base, FW probably slightly better. Did FW serve in North Africa in 1942?

I've some doubt as Wildcat as 2nd in the asian threater.
I don't think there were 190 fighter in Africa but i don't checked it

CORRECTION II/2 came in Africa in november '42 and fightning same month

HoHun · May 23, 2009

Hi Vincenzo,

>Obv. yes, or i not put it in this challenge

OK, so here they are. Still a "rough" analysis, but a bit refined already.

For example, I have reduced power levels above full throttle height as it appears that my simplificated engine graphs based on power dropping proportionally with intake air pressure has reached the limit of its usefullness with the BMW 801D. (Note that the original engine graphs are also based on this or a very similar assumption.)

I have also re-calculated climb rates because I noticed that the Fw 190A-3 data I provided above had the aircraft climb at a speed well below the stall. Oops

Turn rate still looks a bit funny, dropping much less than that of competing aircraft at high altitude, but I think this is realistic. The Fw 190A-4 is comparatively fast and has its best rate of turn at very high speeds - almost twice that of the Me 109F, for example! (Maybe the use of flaps would help the Fw 190A-4, but my calculations don't take this into account.)

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

HoHun · May 23, 2009

Hi again,

>Turn rate still looks a bit funny

OK, this one left me unhappy, and I re-checked everything to find that I had switched the figures for wing area (symbol S) and wing span (symbol s).

This had a lot of funny side effects, such as having the aircraft climb at its maximum lift coefficient and the extremely high speed for best turn rate. After pointing it out in the above post, it finally dawned on me that it couldn't be correct

Here are the graphs with the fixed Fw 190A-4 performance.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

Best radial fighter of '42

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