syscom3
Pacific Historian
I was going to mention that since the B25 was carrier capable as compared to the JU88, it made it a better medium bomber. But I figured you and Flyboy would slap me down for it!
Ad: This forum contains affiliate links to products on Amazon and eBay. More information in Terms and rules
Actually if you really wish to get technical then Japan was first bombed by B-25s from a Carrier.
To my knowledge only the Germans had nerve agents during WW2. German invention,see.
Actually if you really wish to get technical then Japan was first bombed by B-25s from a Carrier.
3) Global Reach.
The AAF by two or three magnitudes better than the LW. The US DID fight in multiple theaters throughout the world, and the LW didnt.
Global reach is the same if Carriers aren't counted - England is what permitted the USAAF to wage war against Germany.
4) Industrial capabilities.
Facts showed that the US was at a magnitude better than the LW and an argument can be made it was 3 or 4 times better. Just the size of the USN was staggering, and if that power was added to the AAF, the LW would be dwarfed. Some thing for Soren to ponder..... the US economy in 1944 was just gathering steam and up to the end of the war in 1945, had no signs of slowing down and factual statistics of the time showed that the war production was getting more efficent each week. The AAF had the resources to build planes AND produce pilots to fly them. The LW didnt.
Agreed to some extent, however US production-methods weren't superior at all, they were just imbracing different needs priorities.
5) Strategic Bombers.
Again the AAF had a one or two magnitude advantage over the LW. The AAF had two in production before the entry into the war, and had 1 and a half in production added to it during the war. These were bombers in mass production and deployed. The LW had none, except what was on the drawing boards. Soren, ponder this. Multiply the number of heavy bombers built by each air force, times the number of sorties, times the tons of bombs dropped. The LW couldnt be compared in any meaningfull way to the AAF (or RAF).
No one cares about how good your heavy bombers were on paper as they basically never flew a mission that counted (if at all).
The LW prioritized fighter development, that and that there was not enough fuel or trained men made sure that the LW bombers didn't get the flying time they deserved - again something you should've known.
So I'd say they're equal.
And stop with this nonsense about lack of materials, lack of fuel and lack of pilots. All that proves is your LW might have been to large for what it could actually do.
Its not nonsense, its fact, and the sooner you learn to deal with it the better.
6) Long range fighters.
The AAF had three long range fighters capable that flew actual 1000 mile (radius) missions on numerous occasions. The P38, P47N and P51. The LW had none.
The Ta-152H was capable of flying over 2000 miles with a drop tank.
Soren, dont say anything about the P38 being inferior to your fighters. The P38 performed supurbly in the PTO and this is about the best AF in the war, not just the ETO.
What a load of rubbish! The P-38 was a turkey compared to the fighter in the ETO, the only reason it did well in the PTO was because it was much faster than its opponents.
7) Fighters.
Tough call on this. Id call it even. A good pilot always flew his plane at the peak of its performance envelope and waited untill his opponant made a mistake. All fighters had their good points and bad points. The P38, P47 and P51 could just as easily handle their LW and Japanese opponants if they flew smart, and vice versa.
Ha ! In terms of fighters LW is definitely superior! The Ta-152H, Me-262 Fw-190D are all better fighters than ANY USAAF fighter of WW2! - Only the Spitfire Mk.XIV is close to the fighters above, being the equal of the Dora-9.
In terms of defensive fighters the LW is far superior to the USAAF.
8 ) Fighter bombers.
AAF gets a edge in superiority over the LW. There was only one LW fighter bomber that was good. The -190. The AAF had two. The P47 and P38. Both of which could carry higher payloads than the -190.
Could the P-47 or P-38 carry a 1,800 kg bomb ?? No! So the LW might only have one really good fighter-bomber but, its better than those of the USAAF - So again the LW is better.
9) Light/Attack bombers.
Id give the LW an edge in magnitude in superiority over the AAF. The LW had more dedicated types than the AAF. So credit goes to where its due.
Wow! Being generous are we ?
11) Training.
The AAF ended up being a magnitude or two better than the LW personell wise simply because the AAF spent more time in training for the pilots. The LW was hampered by fuel shortages (as we know) but in the real world of war.... thats tough luck.
Its not tough luck, its what happens when an incompitent man is calling the shots for you and you cannot question his decision.
15) Advanced weapons.
Edge to the AAF. Simply put, the allies ended up with an atomic bomb and the Germans didnt. Rocket technology would go to the Germans, but they didnt do anything did they? Same with the jets. Advanced over the AAF, but in a case of the technology wasnt mature and political meddling...they came to nothing when it came to winning a battle or the war.
Again a complete load of rubbish from Syscom3!
The LW was FAR ahead in terms of advanced weaponary, the multitude of superior jets, rockets, guidance systems etc etc. made by Germany more than makes sure of this.
The fact that the US acquired the A-bomb first (By the help of German scientists espionage) doesn't at all mean they were ahead in advanced weapons - firstly because the splitting is a rather simple concept, one first thought of carried out by the Germans btw but again rejected by Hitler, and secondly because its just ONE thing - its really the only important advanced weapon deployed by the US - all the while the Germans were deploying MANY more advanced weapons.
Neither the Germasn or the British had anything like Willow Run but to be fair there is one important difference. The USA wasn't under any real danger of attack. Had Germany built or tried to build a Willow Run type of factory it would have been wiped out by allied bombers before completion.Agreed to some extent, however US production-methods weren't superior at all, they were just imbracing different needs priorities.
This I fundamentally disagree with. To all intents and purposes the Germans didn't have any strategic bombers. The nearest they had, the 177, was built in very limited numbers, was dreadfully unreliable not to say dangerous and the only time it came to being used in this fashion (The Mini Blitz Jan to Mar 1944) it sufferred very heavy losses.The LW prioritized fighter development, that and that there was not enough fuel or trained men made sure that the LW bombers didn't get the flying time they deserved - again something you should've known.
This doesn't matter at all. The post is about the best best WW2 airforce. A plane that only entered the war in the last few months when the war was already lost, in very very limited numbers, unless it did something remarkable is irrelevant [/QUOTE]The Ta-152H was capable of flying over 2000 miles with a drop tank.
Ha ! In terms of fighters LW is definitely superior! The Ta-152H, Me-262 Fw-190D are all better fighters than ANY USAAF fighter of WW2! - Only the Spitfire Mk.XIV is close to the fighters above, being the equal of the Dora-9.
In terms of defensive fighters the LW is far superior to the USAAF.
Your knowledge of world history beyond England-Germany Russia is faulty.
Ploesti, the most important single source of Petroleum for the 3rd Reich was bombed to oblivion from a former Axis state - Italy. Much of the SE Germany and Austria aircraft industry at Weiner-Neustadt and Regensburg and Augsburg and Leipzig was bombed (as well as England based 8th) by 12th and 15th AF from Italy. Italy was invaded from Sicily - not England.Japan was first bombed by B-29s from China. In short Global Reach far exceeding the LW even w/o carriers
Name three LW plants combined that put as many a/c as Willow Run GM plant
They prioritized Fighter production when it became clear in early 1944 that German industry would die from USSAF precison attacks - and German bombers weren't doing much against anybody
Syscom 'not dealing well' with your world?
Did it? Did it fly 100o miles? did it escort anything? - but it was 'the greatest escort fighter"? Perhaps in a different world of 'possibility' in which reality counts for nothing.
It was also faster than its LW opponents and solved its compressibility problems in mid 1944.
The Ta152H got how many kills?
The Fw190D got how many kills?
The Me262 was the best of all fighters that actually flew combat - including the Ta152 and Fw190D - what did it contribute to the war effort?
So great that they were virtually driven from the skies beginning with mere defeat in early to mid 1944 when they had local air superiority over Germany, to complete disarray in early 1945 even with fighter vs fighter air superiority during Operation Bodenplatte?
So what. A 3000 pounder might be effective against Sub Pens but who cares re: fighter Bomber. I'd rather carry 3 x 1000 pounders like the P-38 and F4U and P-47
How far is far?? I forget. Multitude? Me 262 and Ar234 versus Meteor and P-80?
Sarin versus Sarin and the A-Bomb. V-2s versus 4000 B17/B-24 plus 2000 lancasters with escort fighters? plus all the Medium bombers capablre of the same load actually Hitting the target instead of the cornfields?
The V1 was totally worthless and the V-2 essentially the same - indefensible against cornfield attacks
Sarin was one - and the US had a stockpile in Colorado. Had Hitler used it against the allies there might not be much German spoken today
- any other weapons that 'might have made a difference' ??
Think Soren, if anything you mentioned as the wonder weapon managed to extend the war in Europe three more months - what do you think Berlin would look like today - instead of Hiroshima and Nagasaki?
Yeah, roll those eyes. Syscom is pretty much dead on
If the LW had the best defensive fighters they would have won the air war over Germany. The 152, 190D and 262 were remarkable aircraft but were to late. The LW had already lost the war over Germany.
You think that the best production technique is the one which churns out the most a/c ? well sorry but that only happens sacrificing in some areas. The Germans prioritized quality over quantity, their designs were more advanced in terms of engineering, more time care being used on each build. German quality inspections were also all alot more strict thurough - hence the longer production time hence why I said what I said.
And no I'm not saying that the Allies were building low quality products, not at all, however they weren't as obsessed with quality as the Germans were.
The V-1 V-2 weren't inaccurate if thats what you're implying, they were infact amazingly accurate considering range travelled - London was hit with good consistancy by both weapons.
.
Jones notes in the text that 90 V-1 impacts are plotted on the map (I haven't counted them) and that of those, 30 are in the built up area of London.
.
Thats sounds about the same as bombing results for the USAAC and Bomber Command
They were bombing London? The swines.lol.Thats sounds about the same as bombing results for the USAAC and Bomber Command
LoL, Britain contributed to the invasion of Italy. The USAAF alone didn't have a longer reach than the LW, both depended on captured or Allied ground to reach out further.
Soren said:You think that the best production technique is the one which churns out the most a/c ? well sorry but that only happens sacrificing in some areas. The Germans prioritized quality over quantity, their designs were more advanced in terms of engineering, more time care being used on each build. German quality inspections were also all alot more strict thurough - hence the longer production time hence why I said what I said.
And no I'm not saying that the Allies were building low quality products, not at all, however they weren't as obsessed with quality as the Germans were.
Soren said:They prioritized fighter production because they realized they were hopelessly out-numbered in the air, which is also why German bombers weren't operating as intended.
Soren said:Insults from Bill again, how surprising, he seems to rely on these very much.
Soren said:It seems Bill is spewing out lies once again.
Soren said:11 kills to 0 losses.
Soren said:Bill again demonstrates his excellent ability to completely ignore the fact that by 1944 trained men fuel was in scarse supply in the LW, and that the LW didn't enjoy local air-superiority AT ALL when you count how many LW a/c actually went airborne in that period.
Soren said:The Me-262 Ar-234 were both much superior jet aircraft.
Soren said:The V-1 V-2 weren't inaccurate if thats what you're implying, they were infact amazingly accurate considering range travelled - London was hit with good consistancy by both weapons.
Soren said:As to avanced weapons equipment, the German LW employed a/c AA rockets, self-guided bombs missiles, night-vision, auto-pilots, auto-engine prop management computers etc etc..
Soren said:Had there been enough fuel, many. The Allies would've been in a very dire situation had the Me-262 been deployed in 1943 as intended and there being enough fuel for it to operate in full numbers. There's no chance the Allies were going to set foot on mainland Europe then thats for sure.
Soren said:No he is clearly not, he is infact almost completely wrong.
....
Soren for as much as I hate agreeing with syscom, ...