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Fighter Command saved an entire country from disaster in The Battle of Britain. No other air force can claim the same.
No question regarding the contribution, however I might point out that the English Channel was more important factor - along with Royal Navy? After all the RAF did nothing to beat back the Luftwaffe in France and Belgium.
The Royal Air Force also fielded Bomber Command which with the Lancaster (bigger payload than B-17) pounded German industry to a pulp and did so on extremely hazardous night raids. This strategy was an RAF one. I understand that once the USAAF joined the war, their bombers were flying under a different kind of danger as they bombed in daylight but we often forget just how hazardous flying was then especially at night. Many returning night bombers just could not find home in the dark, especially if crippled. I believe that one-third of all the 67,000 or so Bomber Command aircrew died in accidents. Bomber Command was bigger than and lost more men than the USAAF 8thAF.
So, the USAAF had nothing but 'pulp' to bomb and gnats to shoot down in the Strategic Bombing Campaign? And the RAF and Churchill said US couldn't possibly succed in daylight - the only sensible thing to do was join the RAF in night attacks? Is that your thesis?
The biggest battle of WWII was The Battle of the Atlantic and here the RAF's Coastal Command and Royal Navy's Fleet Air Arm pushed the absolute endurance limits with what was available and what was possible to defeat Germany's greatest weapons, its Battleships and U-Boats.
Anybody forget the length and duration of the Eastern Front? Another candidate for intensity and loss could be RAF night Raids and USAAF daylight raids, Other campaigns for blood and intensity might be PTO island hopping road to Japan. All pretty important.
And I know the USAAF long range patrol bombers, Jeep Carriers, surface fleet and Merchant Marine were insignificant to Battle of Atlantic but I didn't realize how insignificant until now..
The RAF trained aircrew and supplied aircraft, airfields and support to many invaded nations like Poland, Czechoslovakia, USSR and the Free French in excile. Many Dutch, Norwegian etc. Air Forces still carry their RAF Sqn. Nos. as a mark of respect. So do the RCAF, RAAF and RNZAF.
My Canadian friends were right to remind us that they were there on day one, so were the Aussies and Kiwis and other members of the Commonwealth. They fought a long hard six years and had had three years of battering before our US Allies joined in. And still continued to operate.
All true and you are leading to Best WWII Air Force?
British aircrew flew in all extremes of this planet's weather under terrible conditions, with many falling from disease. The South East Asian Command operated against appauling odds in outdated aircraft (due to war pressures in Europe) and against immense odds. It is worth remembering that British Commonwealth Forces (including Indian Forces) killed one million Japanese troops in Burma, four times that of the US Military's valiant island hoping campaign. (The reason you didn't know that is that John Wayne wasn't British!)
But somehow the island hopping campaign re-took Philllipines, eliminated Japanese tactical and strategic capabilities, erased the Japanes Navy, took Okinawa, and burned Japan to the ground?
This is a really tacky comment and I hope my Japanes friends forgive me... but it didn't take 4 years for USAAF to kill a million Japanese and destroy their industial capability. And the loss of lives (US vs Commonwealth) was probably less (not sure about this) in the Pacific
So, without denigrating the enormous sacrifice and skills of all Commonwealth fighters could you contrast the strategic importance of Commonwealth versus US in PTO?
The Mustang was ordered to British spec, and it didn't come into its own until it was improved with a British engine, the Rolls-Royce Merlin. (The RAF also wanted the P-38 but Roosevelt wouldn't sell them the superchargers with it).
Actually the British were impressed by the design which Dutch Kindleburger presented to them as an alternative to having NA produce more P-40's.. but not correct to imply a 'British Spec' as in 'British conceptual design'
As a UK citizen I fully appreciate the efforts made by all Allied aircrew in determining that I was born in a free democracy. It is interesting that the Canuck loves the RCAF and the Yank loves the USAAF, but how about going to bat for someone else? Would that be unpatriotic? You are both offside panning the RAF as you do. People all over the world owe them a lot. I had a long hard think about other countries first but we should also remember that this was the day of British Empire, before the 48-State USA grew to lead the world and whilst the RCAF, RAAF and RNZAF etc. were all small parts of a greater British Commonwealth. Same aircraft, same roundels? Go figure!
I don't and won't 'pan' any of the fighters, army or navy or air/naval air forces. I will argue my points that US fielded the best, the most powerful, the most capable, the largest AF in the world. It took several years to achieve that and it was not the Best in any category I can think of at the beginning of the war.
So, concious that I am falling prey to shouts of bias, I want to fight the case for the RAF here, and as an ex-Royal Navy man that smarts!
Your opinion is entirely welcome
And as an ex-RN man I also want to remind our friends from the US that the Corsair was a great plane but that the USN and USMC couldn't land them on carriers without crashing them due to the long nose. They were designated as airfield-ops only until it was the British Fleet Air Arm who showed the USN how to land them by approaching the carrier deck from an angle. Also, we avoided your Kamikaze losses from day-one by having armoured decks on our carriers which bounced the Kamikaze off. The USN ignored our advice and paid dearly for it. The USAAF also ignored the advice of the visiting and very experienced RAF advisor not to park all the aircraft together at Pearl Harbor. (See how the movie Pearl Harbor shows him as a lilly-livered nancy-boy in awe of the handsome Yanks!...arse!)
Finally, the USAAF wouldn't let non-whites fly. The Tuskeegee Airmen story is one we all know (even if we can't spell it). The British Commonwealth allowed all races to fight and to fly.
Until 1943 you are correct for Black fighters in USMC, USN, USAAF, USA..
incorrect otherwise Nisei Japanese who were unbelievable combat troopers in the Army in Italy and France, Korean and Chineses immigrants, Canucks migrating from the North, expatriate French, American Indian trackers, scouts and combat troopers, Hispanics in all arms, German second generation, Poles, Italians, Dutch, etc, etc. So what races/nationalities did we leave out?
That's what we are - all mongrels in the strictest sense of the word - hard to find purity here.
We owe the women of the US a huge debt for working those factories etc. but the women of the RAF kept working all those Allied aircrews (inuendo), so for best Air Force of WWII it has to be the British Commonwealth.
The defence rests.
If we are talking about best, I assume that quality plays a big role in that question. In the US a carrier borne fighter was designed,(first flew in 1940) that turned out to be without question the finest fighter bomber of WW2 and was arguably the finest piston engine fighter of WW2 and possibly of alltime. Of course, that was the F4U. No other country during WW2 came close to that accomplishment.
Just think, before the F4U conventional wisdom said that an AC designed to operate off carriers could never compete with a landbased AC of the same mission. A tour de force in quality.
The Ta-152H-1 and Me-262 are both far superior fighters, far more advanced and higher quality a/c !
Now the F4U was a great design no doubt, one of my favorites, but you're giving it more credit than it deserves. The F4U-4 was on par with some of the latest FW190's in terms of air to air fighter bomber capabilities, however the latest FW190's were faster, more agile, climbed faster and they all featured lighter better harmonized controls. Ofcourse with boosted ailerons the F4U approached the FW190 in roll rate, but AFAIK the F4U's in service by WW2 weren't fitted with these.
The F4U, the latest best carrier based fighter of the war, couldn't compete with the latest best landbased fighters of the war, so conventional visdom holds.
Let me reiterate. If size is the determining factor, then this discussion has no purpose. I haven't seen a single pro-US argument that didn't beat that drum.
I've never seen anything to indicate that US had better quality aircrew, or better trained and I'm not sure how you would measure that. If the numbers of hours is the criteria, then the best trained aircrew in the world would probably be the Soviet women pilots, they had to have 500 hours to even be considered!
claidemore said:Which airforce was most capable in 1945? The biggest one, USAAF.
Which airforce was most capable in 1940, 41, 42 or even 43? For four of the six war years, that was definately not the USAAF. Poll is for best WWII airforce, not best in 1945 airforce. Length of service is a BIG factor.
From my perspective, if the US could choose between Ta 152 and any other piston engine fighter available, in mass production, at the end of the war it would be a relatively easy choice... if it could be modified for three roles - Carrier ops, Long Range Escort and Close air support.
I suspect the airframe has that extendability.
I wouldn't choose the Dora, particularly, over the 51H or the F4U-5 or maybe even the P-38L because ALL the other choices were capable of all three roles to varying comparisons with Fw 190D-9 right off the assembly line.. air to air combat would largely be determined by pilot skill and tactical situation (in my opinion) between all four of these..
It most surely had.
I'd choose the Dora-9 over the P-38L any time, and with higher boost pressure GM1 I'd choose it over the rest as-well, esp. considering the 640 km/h top SL speed and 770 + km/h top speed at alt, plus the 13.8 km ceiling. Also the Dora could carry a good deal more than the P-51.
But, if the mission became escort from Guam to Japan, which ship do you pick?
In other words the FW190 Dora-9 F4U-4 were equals, and the Dora-13 F4U-5 were as-well.
It most surely had.
I'd choose the Dora-9 over the P-38L any time, and with higher boost pressure GM1 I'd choose it over the rest as-well, esp. considering the 640 km/h top SL speed and 770 + km/h top speed at alt, plus the 13.8 km ceiling. Also the Dora could carry a good deal more than the P-51.
In other words the FW190 Dora-9 F4U-4 were equals, and the Dora-13 F4U-5 were as-well.
Dragon you asked how many pilots were graduated in Canada from 40-45 the number is 49707 other aircrew such as navs gunners and the like move it up to total 131000 they started to wind down in mid 44 as there was a large surplus of aircrew .
Same for US 'wind down'.
And your stats bring up an unfair comparison versus the US Civilian Pilot Training Program. The 430,000+ pilots were 'graduated' to point of solo/complete Primary - not getting Wings and ready for assignment to Squadron. I would be pretty sure many of these washed out during more advanced training
Pb - good feedback. Do you have a feel for how much training the RCAF provided all Commonwealth?
Now i'd like to bring up a point that might be overlooked the RAF and RCAF and others had been escorting the 8th and 9th airforce for most of 42 and 43 from what I've gleaned they were instructed to stick like glue to the bombers .
The instructions were same for ALL escort until ~ Jan 11, 1944 when Doolittle issued his now famous instructions which turned the 8th AF FC loose. He was accused by many Bomb Group commanders of being a 'murderer' for that bold move. No question - The ETO USAAF FC was in fledgeling stage until mid to latter 1943 with RAF picking up much of the escort load. MTO more advanced because of North Afrika/Italy operations period of growth.
Unfortunately the Spits from RAF and RCAF were good to about Paris or Zwolle. LW simply shadowed until the Spits had to turn back
They could see the LW lurking but were not allowed to pursue,(much to their chagrin) now I'm assuming this has something to due with extending the range of the escort for the heavies.
This had EVERYTHING to do with the initial stress on Daylight Strategic Bombing and how close USAAF came to bowing to RAF advise.
This would be the first tour of ops for most of these fighter crews and from what I've gleaned that most finished their 2nd tours approaching June 44 . Now I don't know for sure but am guessing the LW stared to wane in the quality of aircrew in late 43 early 44 from attrition on both fronts and in mid 44 there was a marked decline in general aircrew quality for the LW.
By my way of thinking the attrition on the West/Kanalfront was medium high with steadily losses of experienced and replacement LW crews in mid to late 1943. The RAF, then RCAF, etc first inflicting most of the losses until June-Nov 1943 when the 47's got more range and the experience levels combined with generally excellent pre combat flight training started to give the 8th AF an edge in fighter versus fighter combat.
The Luftwaffe reacted to the daylight threat by transferring many Gruppes from other theatres to try to Maintain air superiority over Western, then Central and East Germany. The Mustang started deep target escorts in Dec 1943 to compliment two P-38 groups.
In my opinion this was the straw that started to break the back. The LW could no longer 'pull back' until the escorts ran out of range, then pile on with twin engine me 110 day fighters plus conscripted NJG night fighter D0 217, Ju 88s. They were hurt badly forcing the split of Me 109 fighter force to a.) still be a bomber defense force and b.) an escort for the twins. Very soon the t/e fighter was completely neutralized, the 109s were largely outclassed until the 109G-6 AS came in and even Fw 190s were struggling at 26,000 feet.
The LW could have reacted by pulling strength from Coast back to Germany, leaving invasion front un covered... or could have put more fighter strength in France and Holland to help out JG1 and JG26 - but the sheer numbers of RAF/RCAF plus 8th and 9th AF fighters that could cover to West Germany was far more than over German targets where only the 51 and 38 could go. In my opinion the latter decison loses more LW fighters quicker, hastening the end(or accelerating the Me 262 in desparation)
This being hastened by the 51s/47s. of the 8th . Are we talking about apples and oranges in relation to the skill level of the LW between 42-early 44 and mid 44 -45 and the number of kills achieved
Bill, my source says that the F4U5 had a critical altitude of 31, 400 ft where it could reach 462-470 mph. It's service ceiling was 41400 feet and it had an initial rate of climb of 4250 fpm. It could exceed 400 mph at sea level and of course mounted 4-20mm cannon and had a range on internal fuel of 1036 miles and could still tote a 4000 pound bomb load. The F4U4's critical altitude was 26200 ft. The F4U5 was a production air craft and played a fairly major role in the Korean War. All in all, I would take it over the wunderkind TA152 all day(and night) long.
Bill,
The Ta-152H-1's internal fuel capacity was ~1,000 Liters, compared to the 640 Liters of the FW-190. Both could carry one, two or three 300 L drop tanks. Bomb load capability was two 250 kg bombs + one 500 kg bomb, or up to a single 1,800 kg centerline bomb. Now AFAIK not even the P-38 could haul such a load, which just goes to show how sturdy the FW190 airframe actually is.
So about 1900 liters x .26 gallons = ~500 gallons total? the 51H had 192 wing plus 60 gal fuse plus 320 gallons external (ferry) or 220 external (Shuttle mission to Russia or escort to Japan from Guam. The 51D and B could carry 85 in fuse tank but wasn't as fast in cruise or top speed... so the 51H could go farther with less.
Very interesting... So the Ta 152 could carry about the same as a 51H internally? and externally?
Did the LW ever perform long range flight test to see what the nominal combat radius actually was for the Ta 152H-1? Now it's all about drag if those numbers are correct. Or any historical photo recon like over Greenland or Azores to point back to for some sense of the actual versus theoretical?
FW-190 G-3 with 1x 500 kg bomb and 2x 300 L drop tanks.
from the Legion magazine up hereBut where did Blakeslee and Goodson eventually wind up?????
I don' buy the part about 6000+ US citizens staying with the RCAF or the RAF "just because it was better." I'm sure there were either financial or personal reasons behind this.
Training centres began to resonate with American accents; some courses were comprised of 50 per cent of American students. Many more claimed to be Texans than was actually the case; girls who would not have been attracted to somebody from Rhode Island, might find a man from Texas more interesting.
You have discovered on of the most fundamental 'truths' in the Universe. Einstein observed this and was ready to incorporate into the The General Theory of Relativity.. By similar laws of phsics including strong forces of attraction and repulsion, these learned gentlemen learned to NOT disclose origins such as New York (or 'Joisey'). Many Americans are smarter than given credit for. The ones from New Joisey, who disclosed such early in the courting process often had no opportunity to procreate - until they came home eventually to a female population less discerning..
As of Dec. 8, 1941, approximately 6,129 Americans Approximately PB? what was the exact number - 6, 128.5??"were members of the RCAF. Just over half--3,883--were still undergoing training, but 667 were on operations overseas while others were engaged in flying duties in Canada itself, instructing, flying anti-submarine patrols, etc. With America's entry into the war, RCAF recruiting there ceased and American volunteers began heading for USAAF offices instead. Americans residing in Canada were still being enrolled, however. Ultimately, the RCAF calculated that more than 8,860 U.S. nationals joined that force
Within a month of Pearl Harbor, talks were underway for the transfer of Americans from the RCAF to U.S. flying services. In May and June 1942, a board of Canadian and American officers travelled across Canada by special train, affecting the release of 1,759 Americans from the RCAF and enrolling them simultaneously in American forces. Transfers continued throughout the war. The RCAF calculated that 3,797 Americans switched back to their own national forces. That left 5,263 Americans who elected to stay with the RCAF throughout their service careers .
Being from Texas we also gave them allowances for being slower on the uptakeor were KIA/POW before they had a choice? All kidding aside that is good information..
Being from Texas we also gave them allowances for being slower on the uptake
here is alink for the remainder of the article with some info on the more notable Yanks
Legion Magazine :