Better German naval strategy 1930-1945? (2 Viewers)

[z42]

The Weimar Republic was starting to come apart - if the National Socialist party failed, the next strongest party would have filled the void.

That party was the Social Democratic Party (SPD)...

Yes, and..? Are you saying the SPD wouldn't have been up to the task? I'm not that familiar with the Weimar-era SPD, but seems the SPD and CDU have taken turns ruling Germany after WWII. And seems they have done ok, Germany today enjoys a high standard of living, and at least so far they haven't started WWIII either.

 

[z42]

It's very similar to saying Japan would have won at Midway if they hadn't started the war with America. They wouldn't have, because there wouldn't have been a war. But of course, where would they get oil? Tin? They couldn't get those resources without foregoin their invasion of China, which was predicated much on seizing Chinese rice to feed the burgeoning Japanese population, Again, agricultural issues.

Yes, they couldn't have continued with their China invasion and still being able to access world trade. Choices, choices.

What you advise is not a "war-winning" strategy, but a peace-keeping strategy, which is all fine and well.

Sometimes you have to realize that the only way to win is to not play.

But when you consider that Germany could not feed itself from its own agricultural output (just like Japan) and still had to import foodstuffs, and that that German industry devoted to domestic farm tractors is not industry devoted to generating foreign currency exchange, what do you do then? Your economy is going to overheat anyway, as you're spending a lot internally and still piling up external debt while you sort out your farming equipment.

The argument is that agricultural mechanization and synthetic fertilizer could have provided a vision for Germany to feed itself, as an alternative to the dreadful nazi Lebensraum vision of conquering and enslaving neighboring countries and getting enough food that way.

As for foreign exchange, that is undoubtedly a problem. But it's even more a problem for a military buildup as well, considering all that military hardware is, from an economic perspective, deadweight. In reality Germany solved the foreign debt problem by starting the war, otherwise it would have defaulted on its debts. If that's not an option, the government would have to be more careful about taking on more debt.

 

[SaparotRob]

The greatest fast battleships still afloat! But, they never contributed much to WWII, did they?

Of course, they didn't know that when they were ordered. But if a much greater u-boat threat would have prioritized building a million ton of ASW focused hardware before laying them down, by that time they might have seen that the future belongs to aircraft, and subsequently converted the Iowa order to Essexes, or even Midways?

 

[Zmauky]

hmm, we strayed a bit from the thread title, but still...
Aside from the reasons for Japan's entry into the war, I think the biggest mistake was the way they chose. Instead of following a national plan of conflict and organising the mother of all battles (say by taking the Philippines and dragging America into a war in Southeast Asia on their home turf ) they decided to anger them.
And Germany ... well, the navy certainly lacked the Lipetsk equivalent of the Luftwaffe. Submarine designers manage to stay in the game, but the Allied post Versailles Commission quite successfully stifled the development and design of other classes of military ships and equipment (for example, by banning the development of high-powered marine diesel engines for battleships or stoping development of big guns).
Well, some equivalent of a school that would encourage development and ideas... (or let's say chance to find that their torpedoes don't work as they should).
How much would they help the Russian side ... well, every step of Russia directed towards the sea is a step backwards for the their ground forces (or at least the deprivation of resources).
That Germans started well in that direction (but did not continue) is the fact that the most deserving factor for the annulment of the Treaty of Versailles... was the class of pocket battleships (an ideal example of thinking out of the box). And that is the only way to outplay an opponent with more ships and larger production capacities. The ground army was successful in this for the first three years of war.
In fact, perhaps the most important question is not whether the Kriegsmarine should have had more submarines or battleships or something else than what their real strategies should have been. Somehow it seems to me that Bismarck's trip to the Atlantic or the twins' walk across the channel (to name just two examples) are actions that did not have some strategic idea what they were supposed to achieve. Mostly too few well-thought-out moves (such as the aforementioned Drumbeat) that had far greater consequences in terms of engaging allies.

 

[marathag]

But when you consider that Germany could not feed itself from its own agricultural output (just like Japan) and still had to import foodstuffs, and that that German industry devoted to domestic farm tractors is not industry devoted to generating foreign currency exchange, what do you do then?

International Harvester made Halftracks, anti-tank guns and aerial Torpedoes
Massey-Harris made light tanks.
John Deere made High Speed Artillery Tractors and Transmissions and Final Drives for M3 and M4 Tanks, about half of all made.
Alice Chalmers made artillery tractors, cannon parts, and turbines and pumps, some that were used with the Manhattan Project.

And so on.

Factories making Agricultural equipment can do other products if needed.

A big problem of both Germany and Japan, were too traditional, and farms were just too small to get decent economies of scale.

Average size of of a Japanese Farm was 2 acres.
1% of German Farmers had more than 250 acres. 3 million German Farmers had farms of less than 5 acres. Farmers with 5- 50 acres was 35%
The average Farm size in the USA was 550 acres.

Farmers are slaves to the Calendar. You have time to plant, and a time to harvest.

Horses and then Tractors allowed a Farmer to plant and harvest far more land with machinery during that time limit set by nature.

That increases productivity. Then add in the US eager adoption of Chemical Fertilizers and high yield seeds, a single US Farm needed far fewer workers to produce more food than in Germany and Japan.

Farms don't have to generate foreign currency, if they reduce monies spent on importing food from other countries.
And when needed, those Factories can convert to War Production.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

Farms don't have to generate foreign currency, if they reduce monies spent on importing food from other countries.

Until you start a war, and find again that your farming isn't enough to feed the population, and now you've lost those peacetime savings and have lost much, though not all, in the way of imports. You don't want to go into war already on deficit spending, if at all possible. And if you do, it had damned well better be short and sharp.

But going to war against a nation who can switch civilian to military production, and has a tax base to pay off incurred debt after the war is over, probably not a good idea, especially when your economy is overheated a full year before the war starts, as was the case with Germany and to a lesser extent Japan.

And when needed, those Factories can convert to War Production.

Sure. Then you have to ask, "How many factories and workers do we have, and how many factories does our enemy have?" Another useful question is "How will we pay for this?"

Going back to the thread's topic, German naval equality is never going to happen and that means German naval strategy will always be playing catch-up. They have neither the money, the industry, the labor pool, or the naval manning to match the RN, unless they want to denude themselves against Russia.