Bf-109 in 1941: what should be realistically upgraded/installed?

[davebender]

I agree. That's exactly what I would do. That also gives you a bit more time for G series improvements. For instance all Me-109Gs should have an improved cockpit canopy and radiator cut off valves.

Wing fuel tanks have a serious disadvantage. The tanks plus connecting fuel lines increase vulnerability to enemy fire. You don't want wing tanks unless they carry enough fuel to make the additional risk worthwhile. I suppose you could use wing tank fuel first and then flood the tanks with a non combustable gas to replace the gasoline fumes.

 

[tomo pauk]

Bf-109s have had 400L of gasoline on board - 106 US gal. With another 60 gals, it's between P-40 and early P-51. I agree that any fuel added to a plane involves a risk, but that was true for all the planes that received increase of on-board fuel.

 

[davebender]

With 50% more internal fuel the Me-109 would have about as much as a Fw-190. IMO that's about right for an inexpensive single seat fighter aircraft. The Fw-190 also had a superior canopy, more firepower, wide track landing gear and exceptional maneuverability at high speed.

Which makes me wonder why Germany shouldn't just produce a DB605 powered version of the Fw-190. 1,475+ hp should make for respectable performance in the Fw-190 airframe. The original Fw-190 V1 and V2 prototypes weighed only 3,125kg complete with weapons. Switching to the larger and heavier BMW801 engine brought rapid weight gain. A Fw-190 powered by a DB605 engine might weigh about 3,200 kg. Power to weight ratio would be at least as good as the P-51D.

3,200kg. Hypothetical Fw-190 with 1,475hp DB605 engine. Later DB605 engines up to 2,000 hp.
3,465kg. P-51D. Early model had 1,490hp Packard V-1650 engine. Lager engines up to 1,720 hp.

 

[riacrato]

The original small wing was considered too small (high wing loading landing speed) even when the BMW139 was fitted. The additional weight from the larger wing was necessary no matter which engine was to be used.

 

[Siegfried]

Completely redesign the wing internal structure. A mini P-51 wing if you will. Inward retracting gear that aligns more vertically when down. Internal wing tanks. If there is room left over, wing guns. I think the biggest "negative" of the whole 109 series is range. Cure that, and who knows what happens.

Messerschmitt did try an all new design called the Me 309. It had phenomenal speed and very good range but I suspect it was ruined by the excessively high wing loading which pushed things to far. It probably could have been fixed with a basic wing area increase. Interestingly the Me 309 had laminar profile wings derived from the Germans own work and a belly style radiator (that was retractable).

 

[davebender]

It's my understanding the BMW139 engine prototype weighed about 800kg. Probably as much as a DB605A plus annular radiator. However DB605 engine diameter is much smaller so you can probably slim the nose a bit.

A DB605 powered Fw-190 would probably have a hub cannon and eliminate the two outboard wing cannon. That would save a bit of weight.

 

[michaelmaltby]

I've often thought that this was the better Me-109 circa 1942 ....



Kawasaki Ki-61 Tony | Warbird Fare

MM

 

[davebender]

I agree.

I think Messerschmitt dropped the ball by failing to designed a DB605 powered follow-on to the Me-109. The Ki-61 airframe would have worked nicely. Replace the troublesome 1,175hp Ha-40 engine with a reliable 1,475hp DB605 engine and you would have a state of the art 1943 fighter aircraft.

 

[tomo pauk]

The quirk may be that there were almost NO reliable 1475 HP DB-605s in 1943... Seriously, not until October, when finally authorized for 1,42 ata, 2800 rpm = 1475 HP at sea level. Prior that it was 1,30 ata, 2600 rpm = 1310 HP at sea level. The 1st Gustavs (late 1942 production) were authorized for the greater power settings, but that was quickly reduced.
So the DB-601E was pretty competitive vs. DB-605A, in power+reliability, up till Oct 1943.

http://kurfurst.org/Performance_tests/109G1-6_datasheet/109G_perftable_EN.html

 

[Denniss]

Replace the troublesome 1,175hp Ha-40 engine

The japanese must have done something terribly wrong, this is just another incarnation of the DB 601Aa and the original engine was not known for having reliability issues.

 

[davebender]

I agree. However I don't think DB605 teething problems would get fixed unless the engine is used operationally. So some Me-109s and Me-210s will need to use DB605 engines during 1942 and early 1943. I suggest aircraft operating from Germany get early model DB605s as they have Daimler-Benz technical support nearby. Units located in Norway, North Africa, Russia etc. should get the more reliable DB601E engine.

Once the problems were fixed DB605 power increases happened quickly.
1,475hp. Oct 1943.
1,800hp. Jan 1944.
IMO from this point onward there's no reason for not making a DB605 powered Fw-190. Plenty of power in a lightweight and compact package.
2,000hp. Jan 1945.

 

[davebender]

There's a paper on the internet somewhere (perhaps this forum also) that details Japanese technical problems trying to copy the DB601 engine. I believe there were problems with the quality of Japanese steel and bearings.

 

[tomo pauk]

They did nothing wrong with the Ha-40, that one was reliable.
Unlike the Ha-140.

 

[vanir]

Only thing I can imagine about Ha-40 was adapting it for local fuels, which are south pacific crude based (Japanese bought mostly from the Dutch until the League embargo) and not compatable with middle eastern crude based like European and US fuels, which the Daimler is built and tuned for. Even east european and central asian caspian crude is compatable. But South Pacific crude isn't (neither is north sea crude, nor texan oil). Hence the value of middle eastern oil. Australian industry for example, can't even refine dutch oil because we had american industry setup, which can only make fuels from middle eastern oil.

Just speculating, but other than this I got nothing. Metallurgy in Japan was world leading at the time. They invented new grades of metals, including postwar standards on duralumin. Theirs was half as thick and twice as strong as US duralumin, their planes had paper thin skins of excellent structural strength, just low resistance to things like bullets.

But their fuel was coming from the dutch. Its crap.

 

[tomo pauk]

The only bad thing I can think of the Ha-40 is that, by the time it was in service, it was not powerful enough - under 1200 HP in 1943 on. The Japanese were aware of that, and went for the Ha-140, a troublesome one.

Here is what a next-gen 109 might've looked like (I've posted it some time ago in this forum, too).
It features 'plugs' (between hull and wings) that have several purposes: the landing gear legs can be vertically aligned when down* (looking more like Spit or P-40), while being wide enough; contain a 20mm each; the wings are free for some fuel tankage. It has no hull MGs, the round wing edges are 'deleted'. The wings can remain light enough. From outside it looks like a 109F/109H combo.
It does not feature the more generous canopy, but something like a canopy/windscreen from F4U, IAR-80, or Malcolm hood would've been cool.
Of course, when a 30mm becomes available, it gets installed, along with other improvements (better DB-605s, MW-50, GM-1); tail wheel remaining retractable.

*U/C legs are attached to the 'plug' next to the wing attachment points

 

[jim]

The only bad thing I can think of the Ha-40 is that, by the time it was in service, it was not powerful enough - under 1200 HP in 1943 on. The Japanese were aware of that, and went for the Ha-140, a troublesome one.

Here is what a next-gen 109 might've looked like (I've posted it some time ago in this forum, too).
It features 'plugs' (between hull and wings) that have several purposes: the landing gear legs can be vertically aligned when down* (looking more like Spit or P-40), while being wide enough; contain a 20mm each; the wings are free for some fuel tankage. It has no hull MGs, the round wing edges are 'deleted'. The wings can remain light enough. From outside it looks like a 109F/109H combo.
It does not feature the more generous canopy, but something like a canopy/windscreen from F4U, IAR-80, or Malcolm hood would've been cool.
Of course, when a 30mm becomes available, it gets installed, along with other improvements (better DB-605s, MW-50, GM-1); tail wheel remaining retractable.

*U/C legs are attached to the 'plug' next to the wing attachment points

that s an interesting idea, i have seen it before. The problem is what performance decrease it would cost because of the extra drug and weight with the standart Db 605A. drug is very important because, already the historical , Bf 109 versions ( inclunding the clean G10 and Ks) appeared to be slower than alleid fighters on same or even higher power settings, despite the fact that was quite smaller than most of them ( if someone accepts alleid performance claims for which i confess i have doubts but thats another discussion) So any additional drug is highly undesirable.
However if Mw 50 was available earlier to address performance issues , it would solve several operational needs. I would add also annular radiator . Then we would have to take production permission which is near impossible. It took them 2 years to put tall rudder in to production...

 

[tomo pauk]

that s an interesting idea, i have seen it before. The problem is what performance decrease it would cost because of the extra drug and weight with the standart Db 605A.

While DB-605A was slightly heavier, it had almost nothing to do with the increased drag vs. DB-601E powered 109F4.
The 1st 'regular' Gustav, the G-2, was flying with un-restricted (1475 HP max) DB-605A and it was as fast as F-4.
The loss of speed, experienced by G-6 had a lot to do with other stuff: 13mm guns their installation was draggier heavier than 7,9mm one, the tail wheel remained non-retractable, the DB-605A was for a better part of 1943 restricted (1310 HP max).

drug is very important because, already the historical , Bf 109 versions ( inclunding the clean G10 and Ks) appeared to be slower than alleid fighters on same or even higher power settings, despite the fact that was quite smaller than most of them ( if someone accepts alleid performance claims for which i confess i have doubts but thats another discussion) So any additional drug is highly undesirable.

It all depends on what one is gaining for a price paid. As early as 1942, still a F-4 era, LW was adding gondola cannons, that were subtracting more than 15 km/h (for 109's capable for 650+ km/h clean). So they were considering it a fair trade-out. My proposal accepts the increased drag of the 'plug', but that is in good measure compensated by deleting LMGs ( their drag), and wing tips. So we should loose 10 km/h and more than double (almost triple) the fire power.
The only in-line engined fighter that was capable to top 700 km/h with under 2000 HP was P-51, so I don't see Bf-109 as draggier than Spit, Yak-9, Fw-190D-9, or Italian 5-series. If the Germans can develop a laminar flow wing for 109, and install it from, say, late 1943, that would've been good for them.

However if Mw 50 was available earlier to address performance issues , it would solve several operational needs. I would add also annular radiator . Then we would have to take production permission which is near impossible. It took them 2 years to put tall rudder in to production...

[/QUOTE]

The annular radiator was never a part of DB-601/605, so I'd not bother. Plus, it would add weight in the front, while subtracting the weigh from rear - not very good for balance.

 

[vanir]

Is this that 42 proposal to succeed 109G production to be produced in Spain? (it's got blown flaps too) It got cancelled because by the time it could be in service in significant numbers the LW would need more Dora-like performance in fighters (ie. not before early 44). It was superseded by the Me-309 proposal alongside an adaptation of the Ta-153/152 Höhenjäger projekt (the E and C series tactical fighters and the interim Dora were all part of this common program). Projections for the 152C were looking far better by the end of 43 and the Dora was already in pre-service trials so that got cancelled too.

Even the 109K was a severe compromise in terms of what the RLM had intended. It should've been the Me-309 if Willy had his way, which is pretty much the same as a G56 but uses a lot of Me-262 parts to simplify production (rationalé being this would substitute the fact it couldn't use many 109 parts and there was a large industry for those already in place).
So the war situation really dictated the 109K, which even according to Willy was supposed to be a completely new design to supersede the old fighter, but turned out to be a refinement of the existing version.

I still find it difficult to believe that any alternate track could be accorded history than what actually happened. Everyone was doing their very best and few were intellectually deficient or lacked motivation. There are generally very specific reasons everything in the war happened precisely as it did, it's a suspension of disbelief to formulate historical fiction (alternate history genré).

 

[tomo pauk]

Is this that 42 proposal to succeed 109G production to be produced in Spain?
...

What proposal yo are referring to?

 

[davebender]

I'd worry more about increases in production cost.

Dirt cheap cost had a lot to do with keeping the Me-109 in production for the duration of the war. If a modified / upgraded Me-109 costs as much as a Fw-190 then why not just convert Me-109 factories to produce DB605 powered Fw-190s?