Bf-109 vs Spitfire vs Fw-190 vs P-51

[KrazyKraut]

I guess there's a reason the XP-47J was downright cancelled, though.

 

[kool kitty89]

For climb rate read my last post Davparlr,

The Ta-152H wasn't rushed into service Davparlr, if anything it was halted by Hitler for some time. Furthermore when the Tempest II P-51H would've arrived the Ta-152H would've been equipped with the far superior Jumo 213 EB engine, so the difference would've been the same. Also the Me-262 would've been equipped with the Jumo 004D C engines, giving a great increase in power for no increase in weight.

Now if you want ot go even further the P.1101 was already in the prototype stage by wars end, and the Ta-183's design and workplan was ready as-well.

I agree on the delayed development of the 152.

But on the jets, the 004C was a paper design only iirc (afterburining 004B), it was the 004E which was in final testing stages and nearing production, while the 004D-4 was already in production just prior to VE day. (according to Delcyros ratings for the production engines were 930 kp for the 004D, 1,000 kp for the 004E 1,200 kp w/AB, though the 004D was tested to 1,050 kp at 10,000 rpm, I don't know if the production engines were rated for overrev like the 003E had been)

And of the ongoing prototype developments I think the P.1101 was the more practical and would probably was a lot closer to production than the Ta 183.
Particularly as some time would be saved in tooling as it used the Me 262's wings. (section outboard of nacelles)

 

[marshall]

I guess there's a reason the XP-47J was downright cancelled, though.

IIRC it was decided that it's better to make a bit less complicated versions like M or N.

 

[kool kitty89]

The XP-47J program was dropped in favor of the XP-72 program which took a bit longer, and used the still maturing Wasp Major engine.

Subsequently the XP-72 was cancelled due to emphesis being toward escort fighters (being filled well enough by the P-51), and the even greater performance possibilities of jets.

 

[pbfoot]

IIRC it was decided that it's better to make a bit less complicated versions like M or N.

I think the J was an interceptor and from late 43 on there wasn't much to intercept as the USAAF was going to where the targets were rather then waiting for the targets

 

[kool kitty89]

It had adequate range to make a good escort fighter though, as did the XP-72 (though I still don't favor that one due to a resulting later production and introduction), and could economically cruise at higher speeds, similar to the P-51, due to the reduced drag.

Republic XP-47J Thunderbolt

At one time, it was proposed that the J model would be introduced onto the production line, but the advent of the even more advanced XP-72 resulted in plans for the production of the P-47J being abandoned before any more could be completed.

Republic XP-72

 

[marshall]

Seversky Aircraft and Republic Aviation

"Despite this incredible performance, the XP-47J was really nothing more than a technology demonstrator. Meanwhile, the R-2800 C series was installed in another, more ordinary Thunderbolt P-47C. The purpose was to trade a little performance for simplicity of manufacture. The idea being that a minimum of changes were required to the current aircraft for the C series engine.

The aircraft that resulted was designated the XP-47M. Not "officially sanctioned", the XP-47M was an "in-house" development program."


But no matter why it wasn't produced, it's a shame, it would have been a great fighter.

 

[davparlr]

The DB 603 N a dream, yeah sure. Just as much as it is a dream that any fighter aircraft powered by either the Wasp Superior or the Centaurus would ever participate in the war.

I didn't say a dream. It was a prototype and I am not sure it ever flew in a plane. The other engines at least were flying.

Aircraft that actually was fitted with the Centaurus, while certainly a good aircraft, wasn't superior to other contemporary designs despite the advantage in horsepower.

At 416 mph, I think the Tempest II was the fastest piston power aircraft at SL, 44 mph faster than the vaunted Ta-152, and with a similar climb.

Your point? We were discussing technological designs and their potential improvements here not which nation won the war. You keep saying the reason behind the Mk.II not entering service was the fact that there was no need. That is not the case, orders for the Mk.II were placed as early as 1942, the prototype flew in 1943. Like mentioned above numerous problems delayed production and thus the plane came to late. It wasn't put on hold because the war was almost won.

By fall of 1944, it was apparent that Germany was not going to be able to prevent complete collapse. I am sure the pressure on the Hawker engineers working on the Tempest II was much less than that of the Focke-Wulf's engineers working on the Ta-152.

 

[kool kitty89]

Another thing to think about is that by this time the US was also puting a lot of focus on the PTO and the planned invasion of Japan. Which the P-51H, F8F, and P-80A were all ready to participate in when the war ended.

 

[Soren]

Soren, the H was deployed to the 343rd and the 53rd FG in Shemeya, Alaska starting in March 1945. Even given the deployment cycle of the P-51D which started rolling off production lines in march, 1944 for deliveries to Italy and ETO in mid may 1944, the same deplyment to the PTO could have been late April to early May, 1945.

Roger that Bill, and thus it realistically couldn't have made it to the ETO before wars end.

The P-80 and P-51H were the top fighters in the USAAF and the Air Force KNEW budgets would be hammered. Why throw any of the best into combat when second best was doing fine as the war wound down? Germany had no such view.

Agreed, but the LW wasn't throwing unfinished designs into service as Darvparlr suggests either. The production of most of Germany's late service a/c had already been slowed down by Hitler, esp. the Me-262 which could've gone into service already in 43. And had Hitler not forced Kurt Tank to periodically shelf his Ta-152 development process, the Ta-152H could've easily been ready for service in early 44.

- earlier possibly if to operational groups with a sense of urgency. Whether it could have engaged with Ta 152s or D-9s is pure speculation but it easily could have seen escort duties in the last four months of PTO. Ditto the F7F and it did serve with USMC in the last couple of months.

Fully agreed Bill.

 

[davparlr]

I guess then German aircraft weren`t considered a threat in 1940, when obsolate Hurricanes formed the mainstay, they weren`t considered a threat in 1943, when obsolate Spitfire Mk Vs formed the mainstay.

Huh? I am not sure of your point, but I suspect that allied effort to field advanced capable aircraft at this stage had maximum development effort, unlike Fall, 1944.

So what is so 'advanced' about these engines? They are all very large powerplants, requiring a very large airframe, consuming the gains in power output.

Take the R-2800 for example - an engine weighting a ton plus a turbocharger adding another half a ton, plus twice the amount of fuel that is needed for one hour endurance at similiar cruise as a plane with half the horsepower, half the size and weight. Where`s the net gain...? Its just a typical example of 'monster truck' building attitude..

So I take it you think the Do-335 was a failure. And I guess jet aircraft were a deadend street because of their fuel consumption.

The Germans were certainly capable of building similiar monstrosities - DB 610 boo-hoo, 3100 HP in 1942 too bad its twice the size and bulk of a DB 605, well its actually two coupled DB 605s, but who cares when we can wave around 'advanced' figures - but usually opted for high effiency engines.

Its the net gain in power what matters, after all.

That's a great testimony of German engineering all by itself.

 

[Soren]

Is that what you did for the Ta 152 calcs?

No, that was but a quick educated guess based on climb rate achieved at Steig u. Kampflesitung Start u. Notlesitung (1,590 PS 1,750 PS) at 5,220 kg, and then the time to climb to 10km at Sonder Notleistung (2,050 PS) at 4,760 kg, which was 10.1 min. I'm pretty sure you'll arrive at a similar figure


Kurfürst,

Could you possibly help us out with the power vs altitude of the DB-605 DC, AB etc etc ?

 

[KrazyKraut]

I didn't say a dream. It was a prototype and I am not sure it ever flew in a plane. The other engines at least were flying.

Not in any WW2 fighter aircraft.

At 416 mph, I think the Tempest II was the fastest piston power aircraft at SL, 44 mph faster than the vaunted Ta-152, and with a similar climb.

So? At higher altitudes the Ta-152 was 50 km/h faster.

By fall of 1944, it was apparent that Germany was not going to be able to prevent complete collapse. I am sure the pressure on the Hawker engineers working on the Tempest II was much less than that of the Focke-Wulf's engineers working on the Ta-152.

Moot point, as by that time the Ta-152 was already entering service. You can try to dodge it as much as you want: The Mk.II was ordered in '42, made it's maiden flight with the centaurus in '43 but didn't enter service until mid '45 because it simply wasn't ready any earlier. It was even planned to be used against the already beaten Japanese airforce, at a time where Mk.Vs would have easily sufficed.

 

[Soren]

but I suspect that allied effort to field advanced capable aircraft at this stage had maximum development effort, unlike Fall, 1944.

They had maximum development effort throughout the war Darvparlr, even more so infact, just take a look at the multitude of a/c to arrive in 44.

Fact is Darvparlr, every nation was putting new a/c on scene as quickly as they could, only a few exceptions such as the Me-262 Ta-152 being delayed for preference reasons of the high command (Hitler).

 

[Soren]

So? At higher altitudes the Ta-152 was 50 km/h faster.

And with the jumo 213 EB engine the SL speed wouldn't have been so different, and the climb rate of the Ta-152H would've been much better than the already very high performance in this area. But most importantly the Ta-152H was much faster at altitude, and its service ceiling was much higher.

 

[kool kitty89]

Was the top speed at altitude for the Ta 152-H with GM-1?



One thing on the 11 kills and 0 shot down though, while an impressive acheivement, particularly given the circumstances, it also is really too small a figure to give conclusions on how sucessful it would really have been had it seen more extensive service and development.


And the DB 603, and Jumo 213 weighed pretty close to a ton, and the BMW 801 weighed nearly the same as contemprary R-2800s. (of the P-47C and D, the 2,800 hp -57 engine weighed slightly more iirc, also note that the -63/59 engine of the P-47D was capable of 2,600 hp at 70" Hg with 100/150 octane, and 2,535 hp at 65" Hg at 2,800 rpm with 100/130 octane with water injection)

 

[davparlr]

Not in any WW2 fighter aircraft.
So? At higher altitudes the Ta-152 was 50 km/h faster.

Yes, but it was clearly superior at SL and most likely up to 20k, certainly in speed and probably equal in climb. So they were designed for different regions

Moot point, as by that time the Ta-152 was already entering service. You can try to dodge it as much as you want: The Mk.II was ordered in '42, made it's maiden flight with the centaurus in '43 but didn't enter service until mid '45 because it simply wasn't ready any earlier. It was even planned to be used against the already beaten Japanese airforce, at a time where Mk.Vs would have easily sufficed.

Come on, this is common sense. The Germans were being overwhelmed and were desperate to field super weapons. Just look at the weapons being pushed. Why they were pushing six jet developments and at least two rocket developments alone. The Allies were not desparate for any weapon system. They had what they needed.

 

[claidemore]

From our beloved Wiki:

By fall 1944 the war was going badly for Germany and the RLM pushed Focke-Wulf to quickly get the Ta 152 into production. As a result, several Ta 152 prototypes crashed early into the test program. It was found that critical systems were lacking sufficient quality control. Issues arose with superchargers, pressurized cockpits leaked, the engine cooling system was unreliable at best due in part to unreliable oil temperature monitoring and in several instances the landing gear failed to properly retract. A total of 20 pre-production Ta 152 H-0s were delivered in October and November 1944 to Erprobungskommando Ta 152 to service test the airplane. It was reported that test pilots were able to conduct a mere 31 hours of flight tests before full production started. By the end of January 1945 only 50 hours or so had been completed. The Ta 152 was not afforded the time to work out all the little quirks and errors plaguing all new designs. These problems proved impossible to rectify given the situation in Germany towards the end of the war, and only two Ta 152 C remained operational when Germany surrendered.

That looks like 'rushed 'to me, don't know how anybody could interpret it differently.

 

[Vincenzo]

Soren, the H was deployed to the 343rd and the 53rd FG in Shemeya, Alaska starting in March 1945. Even given the deployment cycle of the P-51D which started rolling off production lines in march, 1944 for deliveries to Italy and ETO in mid may 1944, the same deplyment to the PTO could have been late April to early May, 1945. .

the 53rd Fighter group was disbanded on 1 May 1944 and wasn't in alaska so can't deployed in march 1945 p-51h in alaska
the 343rd FG was in alaska unlucky not a Shemaya in march '45 but at Alexai Point, in Shemaya only from october '45, and its squadrons were on P-38 and P-40

 

[Soren]

For the full story on the Ta-152 one should read Focke Wulf Ta 152: High altitude fighter by Dietmarr Hermann, and NOT Wikipedia.