Bf-109 vs Spitfire vs Fw-190 vs P-51

[Njaco]

Sorry, like Glider said, I thought it was a fair peice and wanted to share. Not sure who Mr. Williams is but if this leads to any bashing, I apologize. Not my intent. Thought it was interesting.

 

[syscom3]

One thing I will give the P51 an edge in over the other three is a robust wide stance landing gear.

That probably saved more than a few airframes from being wrecked on landing or takeoff.

 

[kool kitty89]

Wouldn't the Fw 190's be similar?

 

[syscom3]

I think the P51 had a wider stance.

 

[kool kitty89]

I think they're pretty similar. The gear legs seem to be mounted on the wing somewhat farther apart on the 190, but they are canted inward (the opposite of the 109). The P-51's main gear do seem to be a bit shorter though.

 

[john brewer]

I can see someone mistaking a Fw 190D for a Ta 152H.

Not saying this is the case, but they are very similiar looking aircraft.

well adolf galand mistook a flight of hurricanes for me 109s and one mustang pilot claimed an Me109 when he had bounced an Me262 according to his gun cam. A pilot writes his report in the cool of an office trying to make sense of the madness of battle. During the battle of Britain even tractors were shot up by allied aircraft as "targets"

 

[john brewer]

Easy. The Ta-152 is longer, both the front and rear fuselage is longer. The tail fin is a different design and larger. Wings are MUCH longer. Sorry but there's no way you'd see this and call it a FW-190:

LoL and ofcourse all of these fighter looked relatively alike from afar, with similar AR wings. Now of you could find examples of someone mistaking a Spitfire with a P-51 or something like that then we could talk.

This is strange for people who are supposed to be informed. The mustang was so regularly mistaken for a Me 109 that it was given highly colourful designs.

quote
The Battle of Barking Creek
No. 74 Squadron saw its first action only 15 hours after war was declared, sent to intercept a bomber raid that turned out to be returning RAF planes. On 6 September 1939, "A" Flight was scrambled to intercept a suspected enemy radar track and ran into the Hurricanes of No. 56 Squadron RAF. Believing 56 to be the enemy, Malan ordered an attack. Paddy Byrne and John Freeborn downed two RAF aircraft, killing one officer, Montague Hulton-Harrop, in this friendly fire incident, which became known as the Battle of Barking Creek. At the subsequent courts martial, the court accepted that the entire incident was an unfortunate error.
unquote

Adolf "sailor" Malan went on to be one of the top RAF aces, in a war situation anything can be mistaken for anything (pretty much) in the Battle of Britain pilots blasted away at anything that moved mainly out of fear and adrenaline 10% of kills were estimated to be friendly fire.

 

[Glider]

Adolf "sailor" Malan went on to be one of the top RAF aces, in a war situation anything can be mistaken for anything (pretty much) in the Battle of Britain pilots blasted away at anything that moved mainly out of fear and adrenaline 10% of kills were estimated to be friendly fire.

Have you anything to support that 10% staement. I certainly agree that 'friendly fire' incidents happen but 10%?

 

[drgondog]

I would challenge the 10% figure also, in fact I would like to see any hard data on the subject as most of the combat was in daylight..

 

[john brewer]

Have you anything to support that 10% staement. I certainly agree that 'friendly fire' incidents happen but 10%?

I remember reading it years ago with reference to the battle of britain, read pilots accounts, there were bullets and planes all over the place, pilots were exhausted and scared. To protect a fellow pilot under attack from the rear frequently involved firing in the enemys (and therefore your friends) direction. Not only did pilots shoot each other down they also collided with depressing regularity.

While I have found much of the discussion here interesting most seem to ignore the simple truths of the reality.

The P51 was an escort fighter without peer in WW2 because it was specifically designed to be one. An escort fighter protects a fleet of bombers at approx 25000ft, climbing isnt at all important. The fighters of the Luftwaffe had to attack the bombers which required heavy armour and armament. An FW 190 attacking a fleet of bombers wasnt the same animal as was seen in France. Some people here speak of the P51 as if it could fight all over the channel across belgium and hollan and then on to berlin. A Mustang with its full load of fuel and external tanks was only just airworthy small changes to the throttle at low altitude after take off could result in a crash.

For my tuppence worth on the P51/ spitfire/ bf109/fw190 debate. The p51 was very late in the game it was very slippery in aerodynamics but heavy (the original mustang was rushed into service). There was little use for the mustang until the USAAF got hammered on unescorted raids. The spitfire was the better air superiority fighter and gradually got the better of the 109 variants wheras the fw190 was a fantasic plane which was pretty much neck and neck with the spitfire untill the end of hostilities. In fact all these planes were at the peak of their development and jets were already being introduced...........just remember most pilots didnt see the plane that shot them down in WW2. Additionally the spitfire was never designed for absolute top speed its wings had a washout of (from memory) 1 1/2 degrees which induces drag but increases control at the limits of stall, a mustang with straight lamilar flow wings stalls with little warning. The Me 109 had automatic leading edge slats to improve turning performance but towards the end of the war many pilots didnt know how they worked and so didnt make full use of the plane thinking it was at the limit when the slats had only started to work (they made the 'plane vibrate)


As far as the P51 is concerned it was its mass deployment with huge formations of bombers that was the reason for its success. I read one account of 44 Me262 being sent to intercept 1200 heavy bombers escorted by 600 P51s. Germany in 1944/45 was fighting on at least 4 fronts and running out of pilots fuel and equipment. Regardless of the Me262 being vastly superior they had no chance. How many Sopwith camels could a eurofighter cope with before being overwhelmed?

 

[john brewer]

I would challenge the 10% figure also, in fact I would like to see any hard data on the subject as most of the combat was in daylight..

for me a hawker typhoon looks nothing like a FW 190 however during the war there were so many instances of friendly fire that Typhoons were painted with black and white stripes which later were known as "D Day stripes" There were so mant instances of friendly fire that shortly after D Day only P38 lightings operated around the fleet, being twin engined twin boom fighters they were completely different from the single engined fighters. My uncle (from RAF royal obsever corps) was at D Day on an American liberty gun ship (armed with multi anti aircraft guns) he had been invalided out of bomber command with pneumonia. His job was to identify aircraft as friend or foe and direct the american guns. The americans had in many cases come straight from the USA and having no experience in combat blasted away at anything just in case. During three long weeks being on watch 12 hrs per day he was called into action once, for which he received a glowing commendation from the ships captain, who was eternally gratefull that someone knew who was a friend and who was an enemy, until he died recently that document was the thing of which he was most proud.

As for things being in daylight I have just read about a pilot being shot down in the battle of britain, despite being english and wearing RAF uniform he was attacked by a farmer with a hay rake who thought the invasion had started. Too many posters here think the protagonists in a war are involved in an intellectual debate. they are tired scared full of adrenaline and fighting for their lives

 

[steve51]

In the book "Bader's Last Flight", Andy Saunders presents compelling arguments that 3 Spitfires , including Baders', were shot down by friendly fire on Circus 68. I suspect that friendly fire incidents were more common then is generally recognized.

 

[claidemore]

Hi John,

I remember reading it years ago with reference to the battle of britain, read pilots accounts, there were bullets and planes all over the place, pilots were exhausted and scared. To protect a fellow pilot under attack from the rear frequently involved firing in the enemys (and therefore your friends) direction. Not only did pilots shoot each other down they also collided with depressing regularity.
How often is depressing regularity? The sky is a big place, so bullets and planes all over the place doesn't mean it was a demolition derby. You paint a picture of exhausted frightened out of their wits nimrods blazing away at anything that moves, which IMO is insulting to the men who fought there.

While I have found much of the discussion here interesting most seem to ignore the simple truths of the reality.
I mean no offence, but from reading your posts it seems to me that you have an excellent general knowledge on this subject, but are lacking in some details, and that is giving you a skewed perception of 'simple truths of reality'.

The P51 was an escort fighter without peer in WW2 because it was specifically designed to be one.
The P51 was designed specifically to be a better plane than the P40, and the RAF at that time was not looking for escort fighters. If anything the P51 was designed to be an interceptor and it's initial use was as an intruder.

An escort fighter protects a fleet of bombers at approx 25000ft, climbing isnt at all important.
In a fighter, climb ability is one of the most important performance attributes, second only to speed, which I'm sure we would both agree the P51 had in abundance. In any case, what happens if the attacking fighters are 5000 feet higher than the escorts?

The fighters of the Luftwaffe had to attack the bombers which required heavy armour and armament. An FW 190 attacking a fleet of bombers wasnt the same animal as was seen in France. Some people here speak of the P51 as if it could fight all over the channel across belgium and hollan and then on to berlin. A Mustang with its full load of fuel and external tanks was only just airworthy small changes to the throttle at low altitude after take off could result in a crash.

For my tuppence worth on the P51/ spitfire/ bf109/fw190 debate. The p51 was very late in the game it was very slippery in aerodynamics but heavy (the original mustang was rushed into service). There was little use for the mustang until the USAAF got hammered on unescorted raids. The spitfire was the better air superiority fighter and gradually got the better of the 109 variants wheras the fw190 was a fantasic plane which was pretty much neck and neck with the spitfire untill the end of hostilities. In fact all these planes were at the peak of their development and jets were already being introduced...........just remember most pilots didnt see the plane that shot them down in WW2. Additionally the spitfire was never designed for absolute top speed its wings had a washout of (from memory) 1 1/2 degrees which induces drag but increases control at the limits of stall, a mustang with straight lamilar flow wings stalls with little warning. The Me 109 had automatic leading edge slats to improve turning performance but towards the end of the war many pilots didnt know how they worked and so didnt make full use of the plane thinking it was at the limit when the slats had only started to work (they made the 'plane vibrate)
We've had many long discussions about LE slats, and my personal conclusion is that pretty much every pilot flying 109s understood how the slats worked and why, (including RAE test pilots). but not every pilot trusted them and not every pilot pushed the 109 to the limits available. The 109E had some problems with the slats not opening evenly, and a pilots aim would be disturbed when the slats opened, but any 109 aficiando on these forums will state emphatically that they did not vibrate when the slats were deployed.

As far as the P51 is concerned it was its mass deployment with huge formations of bombers that was the reason for its success. I read one account of 44 Me262 being sent to intercept 1200 heavy bombers escorted by 600 P51s. Germany in 1944/45 was fighting on at least 4 fronts and running out of pilots fuel and equipment. Regardless of the Me262 being vastly superior they had no chance. How many Sopwith camels could a eurofighter cope with before being overwhelmed?

I'm sure drgondog will have some comments about 600 escort P51s. Thats more his area than mine.

 

[Milosh]

for me a hawker typhoon looks nothing like a FW 190 however during the war there were so many instances of friendly fire that Typhoons were painted with black and white stripes which later were known as "D Day stripes"

The ID stripes and the D-Day stripes were different. The D-Day stripes were of equal width (iirc correctly 18" wide), 3 white and 2 black, while the ID stripes had 4 black stripes, 1/2 width of the 3 white stripes.

 

[john brewer]

The ID stripes and the D-Day stripes were different. The D-Day stripes were of equal width (iirc correctly 18" wide), 3 white and 2 black, while the ID stripes had 4 black stripes, 1/2 width of the 3 white stripes.

Are we splitting hairs or splitting stripes, the fact is they were black and white stripes to tell friend from foe! I presume the D Day stripes were seen as an improvement although I couldnt honestly be bothered to look it up.

 

[john brewer]

Hi John,



I'm sure drgondog will have some comments about 600 escort P51s. Thats more his area than mine.

quote
By the end of February 1945 JG 7 had claimed around 45 four-engine bombers and 15 fighters, but at this stage of war this success rate had no affect whatsoever on the Allied air offensive. During March JG 7 finally began to deliver larger scale attacks against the heavy bomber streams. 3 March saw 29 sorties for 8 kills claimed (one jet was lost). On 18 March III./JG 7 finally managed their biggest attack numerically thus far, some 37 Me 262s engaging a force of 1,200 American bombers and 600 fighters. This action also marked the first use of the new R4M rockets. 12 bombers and 1 fighter were claimed for the loss of 3 Me 262s.

The total numbers of aircraft shot down by JG 7 is difficult to quantify due to the loss of Luftwaffe records, but at least 136 aircraft were claimed, and research indicates as many as 420 Allied aircraft may have been claimed shot down
unquote

I welcome drgondogs comments!!!!!!!!.

 

[john brewer]

The sky is a big place, so bullets and planes all over the place doesn't mean it was a demolition derby. You paint a picture of exhausted frightened out of their wits nimrods blazing away at anything that moves, which IMO is insulting to the men who fought there.

No one could have greater respect or admiration than me, the fact is during the BoB and the attacks on Germany both sides were near their limits. Pilots would fall asleep in the cockpit on landing even land in the wrong country. No rational pilot would mistake cornwall for france but many germans did in the heat and confusion of battle they were disorientated. Most pilots accounts I have read attest to the confusion disorientation and fatigue on both sides, this in no way undermines their courage and skill.

The P51 was an escort fighter without peer in WW2 because it was specifically designed to be one.
The P51 was designed specifically to be a better plane than the P40, and the RAF at that time was not looking for escort fighters. If anything the P51 was designed to be an interceptor and it's initial use was as an intruder.
Sorry I should have said the P51D the mustang was an unremarkable aircraft until escorting bombers in daylight was required


In a fighter, climb ability is one of the most important performance attributes, second only to speed, which I'm sure we would both agree the P51 had in abundance. In any case, what happens if the attacking fighters are 5000 feet higher than the escorts?

As I undertand it the escorts were on various levels some above and some ahead and around the formation. The escorts just have to break up the initial attack it is almost impossible to attack a bomberwith fighters closing you down.

 

[john brewer]

In the book "Bader's Last Flight", Andy Saunders presents compelling arguments that 3 Spitfires , including Baders', were shot down by friendly fire on Circus 68. I suspect that friendly fire incidents were more common then is generally recognized.

In the first real use of the big wing two of Baders flight were so focussed on shooting down the same plane they hit each other. if you read the role call of deaths during the battle of britain there are a large number of pilots killed in training and other accidents and hit from ground fire. It was a big problem for british twin engined bombers returning from france....they looked like luftwaffe bombers especially the hampden and Do17

 

[Colin1]

for me a Hawker Typhoon looks nothing like a Fw190...

...in a war situation anything can be mistaken for anything...

Yeah?

 

[john brewer]

Yeah?

well a typhoon is bigger with a huge chin radiator and a different canopy and wing shape.....apart from that they are identical.

when a bomber can claim to have sunk a japanese cruiser when in fact they missed an american submarine which dived....anything can be mistaken for anything especially when aircraft are approaching at combined speeds of 700mph+