Pinsog,
No I didn't. It wouldn't be fun to get shot and kill removed by a guy you can't find. Sort of like swimming in waters infested with Great Whites and KNOWING they are there. Knowing still wouldn't change the outcome...
Biff
Bf-109 vs Spitfire vs Fw-190 vs P-51
- Thread starter Soren
- Start date
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Pinsog,
No I didn't. It wouldn't be fun to get shot and kill removed by a guy you can't find. Sort of like swimming in waters infested with Great Whites and KNOWING they are there. Knowing still wouldn't change the outcome...
Biff
I get the feeling the F22 lives up to the hype, am I correct?
It seems from all the press that the F35 might be junk. Do you have an opinion on the F35?
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The F22 is a game changer. It's not perfect, but it's effective. I work with several Raptor guys, and the discussions aren't bad. F-35 is too soon to tell. Lots of new technology that has to have the bugs worked out. This is all my opine of course!
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Thanks a lot, Jeff!
Very interesting. The newest versions of the older ladies, 109 and Spit, were still very competive. Spitfire XIV was rather slow near SL but very fast high up and its roc was excellent. 109K also an excellent climber and very fast up to 10km.
Juha
wuzak
Captain
Could have been interesting had they got the 3 speed supercharger for teh Griffon earlier.
The 100 Series Griffons added a LS to the normal MS and FS gears (with some other minor changes). Having the LS gear would have improved low altitude power and thus climb and speed.
OldSkeptic
Senior Airman
- 509
- May 17, 2010
Don't forget the version of the Griffon the XIV used was the high altitude gearing one (comparable to the HF Merlin 70). They could have done a 'Merlin 66' LF version with lower ratio supercharger gears. They didn't have to, since they had the Tempest for that. The Spit XII showed that you could make a fast low altitude Spit if required.
CORSNING
Tech Sergeant
Taking the information off the graphs and putting it onto a chart looks like this.
Altitude.Speed/Climb
Meters..P-47M------P-47N
S.L......367/3960---364/3700
.1,000..378/3930---376/3640
.2,000..388/3835---386/3570
.3,000..400/3715---398/3480
.4,000..411/3630---410/3345
.5,000..423/3495---421/3180
.6,000..434/3335---432/2975
.7,000..446/3135---444/2730
.8,000..457/2875---456/2430
.9,000..468/N.G.----463/N.G.
10,000.~473/N.G.-~467/N.G.
Jeff
bobbysocks
Chief Master Sergeant
i havent read the rest of the thread so if this has been addressed..sorry. it may seem that in the gun camera footage the firing duration is rather long... but the way it was set up was that the camera rolled film for several seconds after the trigger was released. that way the end result ( kill/damage confirmation ) could be determined. also, and i have posed this question to the guys who used to process those films back in the day...i believe ( but have absolutely no proof ) that the gun cameras ran at a faster frame rate to capture more detail for intel purposes....but that would give you a longer playback as well. The pilots also could turn on the just camera only and shoot...as many did to record their victories. while i dont doubt a lot of guys chewed up ammo in the heat of the moment...the camera would still be running a good 5 or so seconds after that. but some good comments in your posts.....
with the rear warning radar......from the guys i have talked to... you couldnt use it while flying in formation...basically on your way to the target. probably the only person who it would have worked for was tail end charlie. then when you got into a fight you were pre-occupied with the guy in your sites or getting the hell out of someone else's crosshairs. my dad's thoughts were by the time the bell went off you were pretty much a goner by then and like biff said...more problem than it was worth.
aozora, do you have the hard copy ( original pic ) of aint misbehavin or did you get that off of the net?
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bobbysocks
Chief Master Sergeant
double post..please delete
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Aozora,
Thanks for putting that in Tab Data format! I'm home this weekend so just picked up my copy of Dietmar's book on the Ta-152 so will give it some time.
Bobbysocks,
I don't remember if someone told me or I read it somewhere, but thought that the "tail warning radar" was basically a radar altimeter type of device pointed aft vice down. Any knowledge of that?
All,
My SA on the Spit MkXlV is a little lacking but will read up on it. From what I've seen so far it was a hotrod (love the Griffon engine bulges and the 5 bladed prop).
Cheers,
Biff
Thanks for putting that in Tab Data format! I'm home this weekend so just picked up my copy of Dietmar's book on the Ta-152 so will give it some time.
Bobbysocks,
I don't remember if someone told me or I read it somewhere, but thought that the "tail warning radar" was basically a radar altimeter type of device pointed aft vice down. Any knowledge of that?
All,
My SA on the Spit MkXlV is a little lacking but will read up on it. From what I've seen so far it was a hotrod (love the Griffon engine bulges and the 5 bladed prop).
Cheers,
Biff
bobbysocks
Chief Master Sergeant
this is all i got basically..
Tail Warning Radar AN/APS-13
Radio Set AN/APS-13 is a lightweight radar set which gives an airplane pilot, or any other aircrew member who can see or hear it, a visible and audible warning that a hostile airplane is behind or approaching from the rear.
The usable range of this set is from 200 to 800 yards, and within an area extending up to 30° on both sides of the airplane and from 45° above it to 45° below it. The set doesn't work above 50,000 feet or below 3100 feet. Ground reflections determine the lower limit.
Tail Warning Radar AN/APS-13
Radio Set AN/APS-13 is a lightweight radar set which gives an airplane pilot, or any other aircrew member who can see or hear it, a visible and audible warning that a hostile airplane is behind or approaching from the rear.
The usable range of this set is from 200 to 800 yards, and within an area extending up to 30° on both sides of the airplane and from 45° above it to 45° below it. The set doesn't work above 50,000 feet or below 3100 feet. Ground reflections determine the lower limit.
The image of "Ain't Misbehavin" came from Littlefriends.co.uk; 357th FG, 362nd FS - Lt Frey "Aint Misbehavin"
Slightly O.T. An additional problem with AN/APS-13 was that it was apparently used in British night bombers as the RAF's "Monica" RWR - it gave off yet another set of transmissions which German nightfighters could track from miles, away using purpose-built FuG 227 "Flensburg": according to this The Hawker Tempest Page a variation of Monica was tested in Hawker Tempests of the F.I.U.
bobbysocks
Chief Master Sergeant
ok...thanks
FYI this post will be a continuation of my earlier post regarding how a pilot interprets and uses the performance charts found in the back of the Flight Manual. I'm trying to write this in a format such that it's understandable to all regardless of their background. There is some humor buried in here, however no malice or ill intent is intended.
Prior to stumbling onto this web site I considered myself fairly knowledgable of things WW2 fighter related. However I now realize I but scratched the surface and will lean on those of you who have that knowledge to supply either as a fill in to some shortfall I have or in whole as has been done previously with charted data.
I will start with terminology, and from there move onto different types of fights. This is all off the top of my pumpkin with no notes or outline, so feel free to ask questions or add corrections.
Dogfighting - Aerial battle between two or more fighter type aircraft. Now called Basic Fighter Manueuvers (BFM).
Corner Velocity - AKA corner or conering speed. Full and abrupt deflection of the flight controls will generate maxium lift without exceeding aircraft limits.
Egg - Describes what max performing an aircraft looks like from the airshow point of view (more on this later).
Grand Stand View - Airshow view, or as if you are sitting in a theater watching.
Gods Eye View - View the MAN has, or what things look like from above.
Turn Rate - how many degrees per second an aircraft turns (at maximum power)
Turn Radius - how large (or small) an aircrafts turn circle is for a given airspeed and G loading (at maxium power)
G force - AKA "G's", or unit if measure equaling one gravity.
Hard turn - usually done at tactical speeds without burning too much energy (speed)
Break turn - maxium performance turn. May be done in both the offensive and defensive environment
Gun - The manly weapon. In most instances used to show mastery over your target. Short ranged weapon, can be of varied caliber, fun, loud smelly when fired.
SA - Situational Awareness, knowledge of what is going around you in a 3D.
Lead pursuit - having the nose of your aircraft pointed in front the other aircraft
Lag pursuit - having your nose pointed behind the other aircraft
Pure pursuit - having your nose pointed at the other aircraft
Turn circle - the flight path of an airplane in a turn (as seen from above)
Prior to stumbling onto this web site I considered myself fairly knowledgable of things WW2 fighter related. However I now realize I but scratched the surface and will lean on those of you who have that knowledge to supply either as a fill in to some shortfall I have or in whole as has been done previously with charted data.
I will start with terminology, and from there move onto different types of fights. This is all off the top of my pumpkin with no notes or outline, so feel free to ask questions or add corrections.
Dogfighting - Aerial battle between two or more fighter type aircraft. Now called Basic Fighter Manueuvers (BFM).
Corner Velocity - AKA corner or conering speed. Full and abrupt deflection of the flight controls will generate maxium lift without exceeding aircraft limits.
Egg - Describes what max performing an aircraft looks like from the airshow point of view (more on this later).
Grand Stand View - Airshow view, or as if you are sitting in a theater watching.
Gods Eye View - View the MAN has, or what things look like from above.
Turn Rate - how many degrees per second an aircraft turns (at maximum power)
Turn Radius - how large (or small) an aircrafts turn circle is for a given airspeed and G loading (at maxium power)
G force - AKA "G's", or unit if measure equaling one gravity.
Hard turn - usually done at tactical speeds without burning too much energy (speed)
Break turn - maxium performance turn. May be done in both the offensive and defensive environment
Gun - The manly weapon. In most instances used to show mastery over your target. Short ranged weapon, can be of varied caliber, fun, loud smelly when fired.
SA - Situational Awareness, knowledge of what is going around you in a 3D.
Lead pursuit - having the nose of your aircraft pointed in front the other aircraft
Lag pursuit - having your nose pointed behind the other aircraft
Pure pursuit - having your nose pointed at the other aircraft
Turn circle - the flight path of an airplane in a turn (as seen from above)
Types of fights: Not all inclusive, but more indicitive of what a WW2 aircraft / weapons would drive.
Egg fight - imagine you are standing on the ground and watching a fighter do a max performance loop. It will not be semetrical (perfect circle) due to gravity and the aircrafts airspeed. The "loop" will look like an egg, with the pointy end pointing up. From the pilots perspective (wings level, level flight) he applies maximum power and a max performance pull. On his side he has energy, against him he has gravity (he is trying to go up so he has to overcome it), resulting in the bottom portion of the loop being larger thant he top portion. As his nose passes the vertical (straight up) gravity starts to help but he is lower on airspeed (energy) than when he began. He will accelerate some down the backside of the loop and the bottom will once again get bigger as airspeed increases.
Vertical fight - Two types, up and down. The former, also known as a "tree" (what dogs do to their prey) usually occurs when a fairly neutral situation develops and one aircraft is trying to out fly the other in a climb. The goal being to fly steeper / slower than ones opponet causing him to fall off / give up altitude. The altitude he gives up or you gain via better performance will hopefully allow you to have turning room to bring your guns to bear.
The "down" vertical fight sees the defender using the altitude below him to keep airspeed on his aircraft while maneuvering hard (giving problems to his adversary or the offender). Goal here is to stay alive, get away, or overshoot him and role reverse. This type of fight can go on until the ground gets in the way, then will transition to a more level fight.
A fighter pilot has many tools with which to use, the most important being the gelatinious gray matter between his ears, but beyond that he has the stick (to lead, lag or pure pursuit if offensive, or generate closure or angles if he is defensive). He has a throttle, to gain energy / speed to help arrive in gun range, or gain on his enemy, or to help generate problems should he find himself defensive. He has a gun, which to use you must be, "in plane, in range, and in lead". He also has altitude which may be traded for airspeed at times, or to keep speed on the aircraft in a fight going down hill. Most fights do not go up hill for long, as the defender (guy in front) usually runs out of airspeed, becomes less maneuverable prior to the offender with the end result being gun employment by the offender. We are taught, "go up blow up".
Let me backtrack for a moment and explain what in plane means. If the defender is in a turn, and the offender wants to employ the gun, he must be in plane. He can be established in plane, or there fleetingly (the former preferred as it allows for longer gun employment time and better odds of actually hitting him). Imagine looking down from above and seeing the defender in a left turn, and you can "see" the circle he is making in the sky. Say he is Westbound at the 12 o'clock position and is being chased by another aircraft on the exact same circle as him but at the 3 o'clock position (heading north). The offender is 90's in lag, but in plane. To shoot, he has to get his nose in front of the defender and therefor get "inside" his turn. If the offender puts his nose in lead, his circle will seperate from the defender and the circles will be offset. The end result is the offender will point his nose in front of the defender on his circle (in lead and in plane), and once in range will pull the trigger / employ the gun.
From the offenders position this is where the enemy aircraft will start or actually go below the nose. From the defenders position he will see the offenders nose go from pointing behind him, to at him, to in front of him (and can now see the offenders belly).
Egg fight - imagine you are standing on the ground and watching a fighter do a max performance loop. It will not be semetrical (perfect circle) due to gravity and the aircrafts airspeed. The "loop" will look like an egg, with the pointy end pointing up. From the pilots perspective (wings level, level flight) he applies maximum power and a max performance pull. On his side he has energy, against him he has gravity (he is trying to go up so he has to overcome it), resulting in the bottom portion of the loop being larger thant he top portion. As his nose passes the vertical (straight up) gravity starts to help but he is lower on airspeed (energy) than when he began. He will accelerate some down the backside of the loop and the bottom will once again get bigger as airspeed increases.
Vertical fight - Two types, up and down. The former, also known as a "tree" (what dogs do to their prey) usually occurs when a fairly neutral situation develops and one aircraft is trying to out fly the other in a climb. The goal being to fly steeper / slower than ones opponet causing him to fall off / give up altitude. The altitude he gives up or you gain via better performance will hopefully allow you to have turning room to bring your guns to bear.
The "down" vertical fight sees the defender using the altitude below him to keep airspeed on his aircraft while maneuvering hard (giving problems to his adversary or the offender). Goal here is to stay alive, get away, or overshoot him and role reverse. This type of fight can go on until the ground gets in the way, then will transition to a more level fight.
A fighter pilot has many tools with which to use, the most important being the gelatinious gray matter between his ears, but beyond that he has the stick (to lead, lag or pure pursuit if offensive, or generate closure or angles if he is defensive). He has a throttle, to gain energy / speed to help arrive in gun range, or gain on his enemy, or to help generate problems should he find himself defensive. He has a gun, which to use you must be, "in plane, in range, and in lead". He also has altitude which may be traded for airspeed at times, or to keep speed on the aircraft in a fight going down hill. Most fights do not go up hill for long, as the defender (guy in front) usually runs out of airspeed, becomes less maneuverable prior to the offender with the end result being gun employment by the offender. We are taught, "go up blow up".
Let me backtrack for a moment and explain what in plane means. If the defender is in a turn, and the offender wants to employ the gun, he must be in plane. He can be established in plane, or there fleetingly (the former preferred as it allows for longer gun employment time and better odds of actually hitting him). Imagine looking down from above and seeing the defender in a left turn, and you can "see" the circle he is making in the sky. Say he is Westbound at the 12 o'clock position and is being chased by another aircraft on the exact same circle as him but at the 3 o'clock position (heading north). The offender is 90's in lag, but in plane. To shoot, he has to get his nose in front of the defender and therefor get "inside" his turn. If the offender puts his nose in lead, his circle will seperate from the defender and the circles will be offset. The end result is the offender will point his nose in front of the defender on his circle (in lead and in plane), and once in range will pull the trigger / employ the gun.
From the offenders position this is where the enemy aircraft will start or actually go below the nose. From the defenders position he will see the offenders nose go from pointing behind him, to at him, to in front of him (and can now see the offenders belly).
The defenders goals are to survive, get away, or reverse / cause a role swap. The offenders goals are to employ (shoot the gun in this discussion), maintain the offensive, or leave before becoming defensive.
When guys are fighting they are using rate (how fast they are turning - can be both instantanious or sustained), radius, usually smaller being better than larger. If a fighter is above corner and he does a max performance turn his circle will start large, and become smaller as his speed depletes (passing through both best rate and corner) and continue shrinking until at some point it starts to open up again as he becomes really slow.
From personal experiance I know these speeds for the aircraft I flew (and they varied on fuel load weapons load) as well as those of my adversaries. They are ingrained, or part of my DNA. No speed is off limits in a fight (unless going there will get you killed) however one usually stays above the bottom speed, and below the maximum speed. These are valuable numbers to know is my point.
From the pilots perspective he is flying along and gets bounced / tapped. He is fast (well above corner) and starts a full power (not always optimum but used in this example as a reference point only) max performance turn depleting energy as he goes. We will also say he is at the floor (can't descend). He will pull max G allowed, then as he slows to corner he can continue pulling to the seat pan (full aft) then as his energy continues to deplete he will need to move the stick forward (lessening his pull) some and roll out a bit as well (he can't stay in a steep banked turn forever while depleting energy). If his airspeed continues to decay he will eventually have to roll out to wings level (slow flight) to avoid ground contact (should he hit the ground / crash it would be a kill and the offender would get the credit since he "caused" the guy to pack it in - a kill is a kill). He wants to avoid slow flight if possible as he is very predictable (no ability to pass problems along to the offender).
Okay, that's enough for now. I will let you guys digest this, ask questions, etc., and will continue on again shortly by going through a fight or two in detail, starting with less maneuvering then moving onto more.
Cheers,
Biff
When guys are fighting they are using rate (how fast they are turning - can be both instantanious or sustained), radius, usually smaller being better than larger. If a fighter is above corner and he does a max performance turn his circle will start large, and become smaller as his speed depletes (passing through both best rate and corner) and continue shrinking until at some point it starts to open up again as he becomes really slow.
From personal experiance I know these speeds for the aircraft I flew (and they varied on fuel load weapons load) as well as those of my adversaries. They are ingrained, or part of my DNA. No speed is off limits in a fight (unless going there will get you killed) however one usually stays above the bottom speed, and below the maximum speed. These are valuable numbers to know is my point.
From the pilots perspective he is flying along and gets bounced / tapped. He is fast (well above corner) and starts a full power (not always optimum but used in this example as a reference point only) max performance turn depleting energy as he goes. We will also say he is at the floor (can't descend). He will pull max G allowed, then as he slows to corner he can continue pulling to the seat pan (full aft) then as his energy continues to deplete he will need to move the stick forward (lessening his pull) some and roll out a bit as well (he can't stay in a steep banked turn forever while depleting energy). If his airspeed continues to decay he will eventually have to roll out to wings level (slow flight) to avoid ground contact (should he hit the ground / crash it would be a kill and the offender would get the credit since he "caused" the guy to pack it in - a kill is a kill). He wants to avoid slow flight if possible as he is very predictable (no ability to pass problems along to the offender).
Okay, that's enough for now. I will let you guys digest this, ask questions, etc., and will continue on again shortly by going through a fight or two in detail, starting with less maneuvering then moving onto more.
Cheers,
Biff
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drgondog
Major
"Corner Velocity - AKA corner or conering speed. Full and abrupt deflection of the flight controls will generate maxium lift without exceeding aircraft limits. "
Slight point of clarification..
The Corner Velocity has a very specific defined 'point' at which the G load is at max(maximum stated limit load factor) and the CL is at max. This Velocity is the Maneuver Point on a V-n diagram, for which corresponds to the largest possible turn rate (in radians) and the smallest possible turn radius.
The MP is interesting because its not possible to damage the bird due to generation of too much lift (you are at CLmax and you will stall) but any velocity greater at max CL Corner speed will generate too much lift and 'bendeth your means of support"..
Vcorner= Sqrt [(2*Gmax*W)/(rho*CLmax*S)]
rho = density, S=wing area, Gmax=limit load permissible, W=Gross weight
Slight point of clarification..
The Corner Velocity has a very specific defined 'point' at which the G load is at max(maximum stated limit load factor) and the CL is at max. This Velocity is the Maneuver Point on a V-n diagram, for which corresponds to the largest possible turn rate (in radians) and the smallest possible turn radius.
The MP is interesting because its not possible to damage the bird due to generation of too much lift (you are at CLmax and you will stall) but any velocity greater at max CL Corner speed will generate too much lift and 'bendeth your means of support"..
Vcorner= Sqrt [(2*Gmax*W)/(rho*CLmax*S)]
rho = density, S=wing area, Gmax=limit load permissible, W=Gross weight
