Bf-109 vs Spitfire vs Fw-190 vs P-51

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From here Ludwigslust aerial combat

one can find one interpretation of the Ta-152H vs tempest fight

Juha,

A long but interesting read. The guy did his homework, complete with maps and plausible explanations. I've been through enough "fights" and done without the help of our tapes, ACMI or GCI to re-create what happened for the debrief. I totally understand the frustration of trying to recreate things, but then add spotty records, egos, legend, on top of decades of elasped time and it's a hell of a spaghetti mess. I think he did some real detective work along with sound reasoning.

I've seen four guys in a "wall" of fighters, all with in visual range, and all come back with a "variant" of what happened. It's then up to the flight lead to pen it up, and figure out what really happened. Tapes with both audio and video help, but sometimes they don't work, or are washed out by the sun at some critical point. Doing the sleuth work so long after must have been seriously tedious (and fun if you got to speak with the actual players).

The particular discussion about Sattler's late take off, and Tempest pilot reporting a lone fighter doing turns then breaking back in, seem to be in my opinon, a single guy looking for his flight and doing 180's trying to get visual. Remember what the eye see's best is movement, and depending on the time of day, he would probably adjust his altitude to enhance his chances of getting visual. In my timeframe it would be larger aircraft turning, flares, and in low light conditions afterburner (all like blood in the water to attract the sharks). It would seem that he was shot down regardless of what the several different versions of the story were as told by Rieche (attributable to allied records from that day and via Rieche - he was at the crash site of the Fw / Ta-152).

Also of note amoung the stories, guns worked for one burst, one plus some burst, or no bursts, with him pointing out he saw impact marks on the downed plane. It's as if he had something to prove when he had witnesses with him (really wouldn't need to point that out). What he doesn't say is there were no shot marks on Sattlers plane (again, if he said it was shot down earlier, and it actually was, no one would say boo as it was corraberated via his story). However his not pointing it out seems to me to be noteworthy / admission it was shot down (he didn't defend the reputation of the Ta-152 because he couldn't).

Do I know if he was fabricating his story, or it was mis-quoted or mis-printed? Nope. Do I know that time distorts memories. Yep. What I do know from having delt with folks who tend to exagerate, is that they have a hard time remembering their stories (they remember what happened but not how they portrayed it), and therefor have inconsistencies in later regurgitations.

Food for thought only.

Cheers,
Biff
 
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yes,well the 109 crashes a lot on take off and landing,the less said about 190 the better,the p 51 was an aircraft made to british specs,so the spit wins again.:lol: .lee.

The Brit didn't design the Mustang. North American designed and built the plane in US with the Packard Build in US Merlin. Still trying to claim the Mustang as a "British" plane. If Britain was so good why were they buying US planes/Engines? .P51 beats Spitfire hands down LOL
 
The Brit didn't design the Mustang. North American designed and built the plane in US with the Packard Build in US Merlin. Still trying to claim the Mustang as a "British" plane. If Britain was so good why were they buying US planes/Engines? .P51 beats Spitfire hands down LOL

Sticking to the facts.. P-51 was an alternative for NAA co. Inglewood factory. Either a new design made in 120 days or manufacturing Curtiss P-40D for the RAF with a licence. The new plane was going to be powered by the Allison V1710 engine. And it was.... but replacing of the Allison engine with the Rolls-Royce one was the English idea suggested by Ronald Harker , a Rolls-Royce test pilot in April 1942.
 
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As has been stated many times before the P51 was a very good airframe, and the merlin was a very good engine. The joining of the two gave the Allies the very long range escort fighter it needed to go deep into German airspace and compete with the LW.
It is my opinion that the P51 was the choice for this role, but if you wanted an interceptor then the Spitfire would be my choice. Different aircraft for different jobs.
 
The Brit didn't design the Mustang. North American designed and built the plane in US with the Packard Build in US Merlin. Still trying to claim the Mustang as a "British" plane. If Britain was so good why were they buying US planes/Engines? .P51 beats Spitfire hands down LOL

Be careful where you put your hands.. The P-51B roughly fit between the Spit IX and Spit IV - both of which were more maneuverable than the B, except for high speed roll. Remember the Spit had a bigger wing, and lower weight - with the same engine until the Griffon in the XIV. You could say the Mustang was a better fighter for several reasons but all related to extraordinary range due to low drag - and higher speeds when comparing engine to engine. Simply the Mustang was a superb long range air superiority fighter, a good fighter bomber and a great all around dogfighter at all altitudes... but 'beat a Spit Hands Down"?

Nope.

Strictly speaking NAA developed a Preliminary design with high overview Specs in March 1940 and presented to Brits in April, 1940 - which was accepted. The design, the wing, the layout was the brainchild of the boast by NAA that "we can build a better airplane than the P-40". The British 'specs' were intentionally vague and loosely translated as 'build me a better fighter than the P-40C"

The first Merlin wasn't installed until the Brits completed the Mustang X - a modified Mark I - and flew it with Merlin in October 1942. NAA flew the XP-51B in November with a Packard merlin 1650-3.

Everything Wurger said was true
 
THX guys. and just a note... the P-51 was the British order. And if you order something and then you pay for it , you become an owner. As memo serves...
 
Sticking to the facts.. P-51 was an alternative for NAA co. Inglewood factory. Either a new design made in 120 days or manufacturing Curtiss P-40D for the RAF with a licence. The new plane was going to be powered by the Allison V1710 engine. And it was.... but replacing of the Allison engine with the Rolls-Royce one was the English idea suggested by Ronald Harker , a Rolls-Royce test pilot in April 1942.

Except that the 120 days was always a myth, never stipulated in the contract:

NA-73Xcontract1.gif


NA-73Xcontract2.gif

NA-73Xcontract3.gif


From: Mustang: A Documentary History pages 14-16.
 
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P51 beats Spitfire hands down LOL

You think!!!. The Spitfire was flying and operational at a time when the Mustang was somebody's wet dream. And, it was good enough to be given the laurels of defeating the LW, along with that other poor design, the hurricane.

I would suggest you are allowing your anti british biases affect your judgement in this.
 
The Brit didn't design the Mustang. North American designed and built the plane in US with the Packard Build in US Merlin. Still trying to claim the Mustang as a "British" plane. If Britain was so good why were they buying US planes/Engines? .P51 beats Spitfire hands down LOL

my dad was coming home from a mission and met a spitfire on patrol along the southern coast of england. he was feeling his oats that day and thought after having racked up a couple hundred hours in a mustang that he was going to show this spit pilot a thing or two. he was the one taken to school that day. only time someone was able to on his tail that also could not shake. he had a lot more respect for the plane and the raf pilots after that.
 
my dad was coming home from a mission and met a spitfire on patrol along the southern coast of england. he was feeling his oats that day and thought after having racked up a couple hundred hours in a mustang that he was going to show this spit pilot a thing or two. he was the one taken to school that day. only time someone was able to on his tail that also could not shake. he had a lot more respect for the plane and the raf pilots after that.

If the Spitfire was a Mark IX, the Mustang should have reasonably easily disengaged by diving away, it is quite a bit faster. If it was a Mark XIV, that would have been problematic.
 

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