Bf-109E vs Hawker Hurricane Mk I

[CatTheCool]

Hi, I was just wondering what the Performance of the Hurricane was like compared to the 109 during the Battle of Britain as I have heard quite a lot about the Aircraft and am not sure which plane was really better.

 

[Greyman]

As with most aircraft comparisons, it depends on what you're trying to do with those aircraft.

In terms of hard performance numbers the Bf 109 was better, but there were a lot of 'softer' qualities each aircraft had that affected their jobs over southern England. Broadly speaking their performance was 'close enough' that the particular tactical situation and actions of the opposing groups of pilots had more weight in deciding things. In the Battle of France and Battle of Britain Hurricane pilots didn't feel the inferiority they did later, and in 1940 were confident in taking on the Bf 109.

So, short answer; Bf 109 had better speed and climb, Hurricane was easier to fly and had better manoeuvrability.

 

[CatTheCool]

As with most aircraft comparisons, it depends on what you're trying to do with those aircraft.

In terms of hard performance numbers the Bf 109 was better, but there were a lot of 'softer' qualities each aircraft had that affected their jobs over southern England. Broadly speaking their performance was 'close enough' that the particular tactical situation and actions of the opposing groups of pilots had more weight in deciding things. In the Battle of France and Battle of Britain Hurricane pilots didn't feel the inferiority they did later, and in 1940 were confident in taking on the Bf 109.

So, short answer; Bf 109 had better speed and climb, Hurricane was easier to fly and had better manoeuvrability.

Thanks

 

[tomo pauk]

RAF's report from May 1940: link

 

[RCAFson]

Hi, I was just wondering what the Performance of the Hurricane was like compared to the 109 during the Battle of Britain as I have heard quite a lot about the Aircraft and am not sure which plane was really better.

At high altitudes the Me109 had a considerable edge in performance. However, under 10K ft, where the Hurricane could use 12lb overboost
(not used in the trial report above) , things evened out considerably, and at low altitude the Hurricane probably had an overall edge in performance being about equal in speed, and probably had a better climb rate.

 

[Kevin J]

As with most aircraft comparisons, it depends on what you're trying to do with those aircraft.

In terms of hard performance numbers the Bf 109 was better, but there were a lot of 'softer' qualities each aircraft had that affected their jobs over southern England. Broadly speaking their performance was 'close enough' that the particular tactical situation and actions of the opposing groups of pilots had more weight in deciding things. In the Battle of France and Battle of Britain Hurricane pilots didn't feel the inferiority they did later, and in 1940 were confident in taking on the Bf 109.

So, short answer; Bf 109 had better speed and climb, Hurricane was easier to fly and had better manoeuvrability.

Bf 109E had higher theoretical speed at all altitudes. Below 15000 feet, you risked overheating the engine by closing the radiator to achieve it. In any case, with 100 octane fuel, the Hurricane could gain on a Bf 109E. IMHO, the Hurricane was better at the majority of the altitudes that combat took place. Come the high altitude fighter bomber raids, it's struggling.

 

[Greyman]

Below 15000 feet, you risked overheating the engine by closing the radiator to achieve it.

Any indication/figures that this was more of a problem with the Bf 109 than the Hurricane?

 

[Kevin J]

Any indication/figures that this was more of a problem with the Bf 109 than the Hurricane?

It's all on kurfurst, French trial of a Bf 109E-1. On paper it looks faster than a Hurricane I, but it's a one minute rating. The Hurricane I had 5 mins with 100 octane and 12 lbs boost. Below 15000 feet the Hurricane was superior. Of the 600 Bf 109E's lost in the BoB, 100 went down out of fuel. On wwiiaircraftperformane, the combat reports from Hurricane pilots indicate they can catch up in level flight withe the Bf 109E.

 

[Barrett]

Generally: the Hurribox was defensive after the merge. If the 109 pilot was astute, he'd go vertical to negate the Hurricane's superior turn radius and pull over the top to re-engage. However, the 109's leading-edge slats allowed it to turn well if the pilot was willing to fight in deep buffet. At least it could work against Spits--less certain v. Hurricanes.

 

[Sid327]

After reading the report, helpfully posted by tomo pauk.

It seems maximum speed is not the clear advantage for comparison between a/c that some believe.

Also (mentioned in the report) whatever gave the Brits the idea of painting the underside of aircraft half white/half black?

 

[tomo pauk]

After reading the report, helpfully posted by tomo pauk.

It seems maximum speed is not the clear advantage for comparison between a/c that some believe.

Also (mentioned in the report) whatever gave the Brits the idea of painting the underside of aircraft half white/half black?

The 30-40 mph advantage for the Bf 109E is clearly stated on the pg.3 of the report. Sorta what Merlin Mustangs had over Fw 190As, Fw 190As over SPitfire V, or F4Us over Zeroes. So I'd say that kind of speed advantage is a key asset of Bf 109E over the Hurricane, and probably a main reason why the Hurricane received Merlin XX (so the performance gap can be closed as much and as soon as possible).

 

[Kevin J]

The 30-40 mph advantage for the Bf 109E is clearly stated on the pg.3 of the report. Sorta what Merlin Mustangs had over Fw 190As, Fw 190As over SPitfire V, or F4Us over Zeroes. So I'd say that kind of speed advantage is a key asset of Bf 109E over the Hurricane, and probably a main reason why the Hurricane received Merlin XX (so the performance gap can be closed as much and as soon as possible).

The speed advantage is at heights over about 15000 feet, so yes, the Merlin XX closes the speed gap, above that height, except if the Bf 109E has the Db 601N. For earlier engines the closed radiator one minute war emergency rating below 15000 feet enables the Hurricane I with 100 octane fuel and 12 lbs boost to outrun it.

 

[tomo pauk]

The speed advantage is at heights over about 15000 feet, so yes, the Merlin XX closes the speed gap, above that height, except if the Bf 109E has the Db 601N. For earlier engines the closed radiator one minute war emergency rating below 15000 feet enables the Hurricane I with 100 octane fuel and 12 lbs boost to outrun it.

Hurricane's main job in summer of 1940 was to kill LW, bombers preferably. German bombers cruised at roughly 5 km altitude (as dictated by their engine capabilities), or around 15000 ft. Escorts will be flying perhaps between 15000 and 17000 ft? Hurricane that flies at 10000 ft and runs away from Luftwaffe is money wasted, just like Fw 190A flying at under 18000 ft (as dictated by it's engine capabilities) and away from B17s, P-47s and P-51s is money wasted.

 

[Kevin J]

Hurricane's main job in summer of 1940 was to kill LW, bombers preferably. German bombers cruised at roughly 5 km altitude (as dictated by their engine capabilities), or around 15000 ft. Escorts will be flying perhaps between 15000 and 17000 ft? Hurricane that flies at 10000 ft and runs away from Luftwaffe is money wasted, just like Fw 190A flying at under 18000 ft (as dictated by it's engine capabilities) and away from B17s, P-47s and P-51s is money wasted.

That's not my recollection of the heights the Luftwaffe came in at to bomb the RAF, more like 10 to 12 thousand feet. The Do 17 which was their primary tactical bomber couldn't reach 3900 m fully loaded. They'd climb up over the channel, put themselves into a shallow dive, and at 370 mph were difficult to catch.

 

[fubar57]

Also (mentioned in the report) whatever gave the Brits the idea of painting the underside of aircraft half white/half black?

Early quick Identification for British AA gunners

 

[tomo pauk]

That's not my recollection of the heights the Luftwaffe came in at to bomb the RAF, more like 10 to 12 thousand feet. The Do 17 which was their primary tactical bomber couldn't reach 3900 m fully loaded. They'd climb up over the channel, put themselves into a shallow dive, and at 370 mph were difficult to catch.

Cruise altitude and bombing altitude might differ.

 

[Kevin J]

Cruise altitude and bombing altitude might differ.

Certainly the He 111 could cruise over at 5000 meters at a more leisurely pace making it easier to intercept.

 

[tomo pauk]

Certainly the He 111 could cruise over at 5000 meters at a more leisurely pace making it easier to intercept.

He 111s were the fair game for Hurricanes at any altitude, provided no escort for the Heinkels was provided.

 

[stona]

Also (mentioned in the report) whatever gave the Brits the idea of painting the underside of aircraft half white/half black?

One of the major problems encountered in building the world's first integrated air defence system, before the development of electronic IFF, was that of finding a way to identify friendly fighter aircraft both to stop them being engaged by their own AAA, but more pertinently to allow them to be tracked by the Observer Corps.

Chain Home radar was a floodlight system, illuminating 360 degrees around the transmitters, but to be effective the inland signals were blocked electronically. Any aircraft inland of the radar could not be tracked and all the plotting information required for a successful interception, such as the location of the fighters in relation to the enemy formations once they had crossed the coast had to be obtained visually by the Observer Corps.

The black/white underside has origins in a letter from Dowding to the Air Ministry of 10th May 1937 in which he suggested that the underside of one of the lower main planes (on the mostly bi-plane fighters of the day) should be finished in silver dope, the other in black. Experiments were carried out at North Weald, but with one wing black the other white. They were deemed a success, and on 28th October 1937, with Hurricane production gaining pace, Dowding again wrote to the Air Ministry suggesting that the wings of these aircraft, including flaps and ailerons, should be painted black on the port side, white on starboard. The Air Ministry agreed to finish a batch of Hurricanes in this way, and the rest is history.

It was the introduction of electronic IFF that rendered the markings obsolete, and the under surfaces of fighter aircraft were specified to be finished in a new colour identical to the Camotint developed by Cotton at Heston as an experimental colour for PR aircraft. This colour was given the name Sky and adopted from June 1940, as stocks became available.

 

[Greyman]

As reported by the Armee de l'Air -- average height of Luftwaffe bombing raids during the Battle of France (as of late May '40) between 2000 and 3000 metres (6,500 and 9,800 feet).

As reported by the Air Warfare Analysis Section -- average height of Luftwaffe bombing raids during the Battle of Britain (as of the end of Sep '40) between 13,000 and 17,000 feet (4000 and 5000 metres).