Bf 109G-2 "schwarz 13" Gunther Rall, 8./jg52, Sept./Oct. 1942

[le_steph40]

Hello,
Many of you are probably familiar with this aircraft: Gunther Rall with his "Schwarz 13" with F. Wachowiak and K. Gratz.


always profiled like this


I searched in my docs to find other photos of this aircraft to see the part ahead and under the windscreen, the part where the Magyar cross (the III./JG52 diamond shaped emblem) is painted but without success.
But I noticed that several/numerous Bf 109G-2s belonging to III and/or 8./JG52 didn't wear this emblem on the port side during Setptember/October 1942 but the JG52 emblem: the black/red shield with winged sword. For instance, the Bf 109G-2s of Wachowiak "Schwarz 4" and Gratz "Schwarz 11" wore this emblem on the port side. But it's possible that the III./JG52 emblem was painted on the starboard side and unfortunately I didn't find any photo to confirm that.
So I'm wondering if the "Schwarz 13" flown by Rall shouldn't be like that ?


Any opinion/advice/photo to confirm/infirm please ?
TIA
Stéph.

 

[Wurger]

From my observations it looks like the JG52 emblem was painted on planes of the JG Stab and plnes of I and II Gruppe. It was used for the Friedrich and Gustav variant but in 1941-42 mostly. The III Gruppe, I mean the Staffel 7,8,9, used the "Red Cross" at the same time relatively. In 1943 the insignia disappeared. As you may notice the Rall's BF 109F had the emblem on both sides. IMHO in 1942 the emblem should be on the Rall's "13" also on both sides of the fuselage.

Rall's Friedrich 1941 .. 8./JG52 ( III./JG52)

the pic source: Jagdgeschwader 52 - JG52

Graf's Gustav 1942 ... 9./JG52 ( III./JG52)

Rall's Gustav 1943 ...

the pic source: the net.

 

[le_steph40]

Agree with you Wojtek but it was apparently not automatic, it's the reason I'm wondering...
Bf 109G-2s "Schwarz 4" and "Schwarz 11" belonging to 8./JG52 during September 1942 from "Jagdfliegerverbände der Deutschen Luftwaffe 1934-1945 Teil 9/II"

 

[Wurger]

Agree with you Wojtek but it was apparently not automatic, it's the reason I'm wondering...
Bf 109G-2s "Schwarz 4" and "Schwarz 11" belonging to 8./JG52 during September 1942 from "Jagdfliegerverbände der Deutschen Luftwaffe 1934-1945 Teil 9/II"
View attachment 802839View attachment 802840View attachment 802841

Actually the belonging of the first and third Bf 109s to the 8 Staffel is our believing in the book author's knowledge and the captions. The black kolour could also be used by the 2 and 5 Staffel. The second one may be said to be of the 8 squadron or the III Gruppe. There is a piece of the III Gruppe "~" marking noticed. But it should be kept in mind that rotation of the flying stuff among the JG units happened quite often. So if a plane from the Stab or other Gruppe/Staffel was moved to the 8./JG53 it could remian the old markings, for example.
To be honest the September in the Russia isn't too warm to walk undressed. IMHO that's the Summer .. June July or August at best. T.herefore I have still a doubt

 

[Wurger]

A Bf 109G-2 Stab III./JG52, Russia August 1942 ...

and here believing the caption the Bf 109G-2 Stab II./JG52 also August 1942 ... IMHO it is not the August but later ...

the pic source: the net.

 

[Russ Fahey]

Hello,
Many of you are probably familiar with this aircraft: Gunther Rall with his "Schwarz 13" with F. Wachowiak and K. Gratz.
View attachment 802812View attachment 802813

always profiled like this
View attachment 802815

I searched in my docs to find other photos of this aircraft to see the part ahead and under the windscreen, the part where the Magyar cross (the III./JG52 diamond shaped emblem) is painted but without success.
But I noticed that several/numerous Bf 109G-2s belonging to III and/or 8./JG52 didn't wear this emblem on the port side during Setptember/October 1942 but the JG52 emblem: the black/red shield with winged sword. For instance, the Bf 109G-2s of Wachowiak "Schwarz 4" and Gratz "Schwarz 11" wore this emblem on the port side. But it's possible that the III./JG52 emblem was painted on the starboard side and unfortunately I didn't find any photo to confirm that.
So I'm wondering if the "Schwarz 13" flown by Rall shouldn't be like that ?
View attachment 802820

Any opinion/advice/photo to confirm/infirm please ?
TIA
Stéph.

Here's a couple of photo scans revealing that Rall's "black 13" received the III/JG 52 emblem, at least on the port side. (Photo 1 via online auction of Hauswirth photo album & logbook, Photo 2 via Jerry Crandall)

 

[Wayne Little]

New to me...Top couple of pics Russ, thanks for posting them.

 

[Wurger]

And all is clear now.

 

[Russ Fahey]

New to me...Top couple of pics Russ, thanks for posting them.

Glad to help

 

[le_steph40]

Thank you Russ