Bf109 success, balanced fighter, or superior fighter?

[davebender]

The Fw-190 was overall superior to the Me-109 as an air superiority fighter only after it was powered by the Jumo 213 engine.

IMO the Fw-190 should have gotten either the Jumo 213 or DB603 engine right from the beginning. But that is a topic for another discussion.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

It couldn't have had the 213 or the 603 from the beginning. The 213 was not ready for production until 1943 and the 603 was not ready for production until 1942.

 

[drgondog]

I've always thought of the 109 as a high performance version of a family car, like a Pro-stocker whilst the Spit and several other purpose built models designed from scratch were more like Ferraris.

P-47 and Spit should go up against the Fw190. The Messerschmitt versus Hurricane, Dewoitine and early Soviet fighters like the Yak and LaGG is fair, as these employed pre-existing industrial conditions.

Just a thought.

The 109 was competitve to any allied conventional fighter to the end. Conversely many WWII fighters in service in 1940 were not competitive in 1943

 

[davebender]

DB603 engine was not ready for production until 1942.

1936.
RLM provides funding for development of the DB603 engine.

1937.
RLM cancels funding for development of the DB603 engine. Daimler-Benz continues development with their own money.

How much DB603 engine development time was lost by the RLM funding cancellation? If you can get the DB603 engine into production 1 year earlier than historical then it will be ready as soon as the BMW801 radial engine.

 

[VG-33]

In my opinion, like other "stars" and "spotlights" of WWII, like Mustang or Spitfire the Bf 109 was overquoted. It was certainly a well balanced plane with high power to weight and SCd values. It was small, light and powerfull at the same time. Except that historical fact, some other designers made equivalent or better airframes with the same DB engine a little later.

I'm thinkong about japanese Ki-61, finish Pyörremyrski and of course italian Fiat G-55, MC-202/205 or, -my favorit ones with DB engines- Re 2001/2005 planes.

AFAIK, italian fighters ware not much less performant as the Messerrschmitt planes and were on the other hand much more manouvrable. The Me-109 was a different compromise, and probably not the better one

J would also say that D-520 or VG-33 fighters despite using weaker engines, were at less equivalent to the Bf-109E. With a more powerfull Klimov M 105, Hispano Y-51, or a Merlin engine the would have been a terrific match to the 109E in 1939-1940.

Regards

VG-33

 

[Waynos]

But even then there is something telling about the quality of the Bf 109 in that post VG-33.

some other designers made equivalent or better airframes with the same DB engine a little later

Yes, later. The Bf109 flew in 1935, the Spitfire the following year, and yet both were highly competetive with aircraft designed and built up to five years later. That in itself is remarkable.

 

[davebender]

Not when you consider the critical issue of production cost. The Me-109 was easy to manufacture. Hence they were in service in large numbers when it mattered most. The D.520 was not. For the same reason, the Japanese Ki-61 and Italian MC.202 were not equal to the Me-109 series either.

 

[Soren]

Italian fighters were not more maneuverable than the Bf-109, and there are infact German flight tests concluding this. The Bf-109, G.55 Macchi 205 were considered close in terms of maneuverability.

 

[Soren]

The 109 was competitve to any allied conventional fighter to the end. Conversely many WWII fighters in service in 1940 were not competitive in 1943

Spot on Bill.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

The 109 was competitve to any allied conventional fighter to the end. Conversely many WWII fighters in service in 1940 were not competitive in 1943

I have to agree. It may not have been the best fighter overall, but it was certainly competative right up to the end, especially at the hands of an experience pilot. The 109 was no where near the best, but it was one of the best (does that make sense? )

1936.
RLM provides funding for development of the DB603 engine.

1937.
RLM cancels funding for development of the DB603 engine. Daimler-Benz continues development with their own money.

How much DB603 engine development time was lost by the RLM funding cancellation? If you can get the DB603 engine into production 1 year earlier than historical then it will be ready as soon as the BMW801 radial engine.

Hindsight is always 20/20. Fact remains it did not happen.

 

[davebender]

Spring 1937.
RLM request for a new fighter aircraft. This specification will eventually produce the Fw-190.

1937.
RLM cancels funding for DB603 engine development.

Does this decision make sense to you? It doesn't to me. The BMW139 radial engine was considered a dead end and the BMW801 radial was nowhere in sight. Neither was the monster size Jumo222 engine.

Germany needs a more powerful aircraft engine for the Fw-190 fighter, Do-217 medium bomber etc. The DB603 design offers the best chance to put a 1,750hp engine into production ASAP. The design is based on the highly successful DB601 and you have already expended a year of research effort.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Again that does not change the fact that hindsight is 20/20. We do not know the exact reasons why it was canceled.

 

[Shortround6]

J would also say that D-520 or VG-33 fighters despite using weaker engines, were at less equivalent to the Bf-109E. With a more powerfull Klimov M 105, Hispano Y-51, or a Merlin engine the would have been a terrific match to the 109E in 1939-1940.

Regards

VG-33

Threre is no question that the 1939-40 French fighters could have been improved for a while. The Question is for how long. Add 200-400lbs of armour and selfsealing fuel tank/s. Add heavier radios. (4 channel instead of 1 channel for instance). Hispano Y-51 might be as good as it gets. It is 300lbs lighter than a Merlin or Allison. And with the engine swap you loose the 20mm gun. Could they be put in the wings? Possiably but look at the trouble the British had to begin with and how much smaller the French wings are. And you are back to weight. The 20mm Hispanos not being exactly light.
Eventually you might get the Hispano Z engine but it is the weight of the Merlin or Allison. And if you are using a 1500-1800hp engine you have to cool an 1500-1800hp engine, larger, heavier radiator and oil coolers. Larger Prop? at least wider blades?
The plane will be faster and climb better than the originals but wing loading is going way-up. endurance without bigger fuel tanks is going down although drop tanks might help. G loading or safty margin will go down unless structure is beefed up. Will a larger or longer tail be needed to cope with extra power?
Some of the french planes did get excellent perforemance for the power of their engines but they might have been tailored a little to closely to the low power to allow for easy growth.
I would note also that some french prototype performance figures might be a bit optomistic. Some were tested without armament. Others had only limited flight time so there might be some doubt as to weither the published figures were actually measured or were estimates. French also seemed to like putting in some rather heavy armament in some protoypes. see:

Caudron-Renault C 710 - fighter

Two 20mm Hispano guns (OK the HS 9 wasn't quite as large as the HS 404) on only 500HP?

Of course the French were not the only peaple being optomistic about the performance of their fighters. See Bell P-39 or the4 Curtiss P-46 for starters

 

[VG-33]

But even then there is something telling about the quality of the Bf 109 in that post VG-33.



Yes, later. The Bf109 flew in 1935, the Spitfire the following year, and yet both were highly competetive with aircraft designed and built up to five years later. That in itself is remarkable.

There is no contradiction with what i said. Overquoted planes does not mean bad planes. Anyway the "Emil" airframe was outclassed in 1940 by last soviets and french designs. The "Freidrich" small wing airframe was more advanced, it's like Yak-3 for the Yak-1 or D-550 for the D-520.

Regards

 

[Waynos]

No, there is no contradiction, as you say. It just points to the excellence of the original design. For while Supermarine could also do that with the Spitfire, for instance, Hawker could not with the Hurricane, and nor could a lot of aircraft of similar or later vintage.

I must confess my ignorance of French fighters of 1940 though and have not previously though any French type was in the Bf109/Spitfire Class. Better than the Hurricane, but not quite up there with the best. I always thought the French were rather better at the fast-twin light bomber than the single sea fighter, though I'm sure any expert could soon pick holes with my opinion on that

I would love a Putnam-esque reference to French combat aircraft 1930-40 (in English) if you, or anyone else, knows of a good one?

 

[VG-33]

No, there is no contradiction, as you say. It just points to the excellence of the original design. For while Supermarine could also do that with the Spitfire, for instance, Hawker could not with the Hurricane, and nor could a lot of aircraft of similar or later vintage.

I must confess my ignorance of French fighters of 1940 though and have not previously though any French type was in the Bf109/Spitfire Class. Better than the Hurricane, but not quite up there with the best. I always thought the French were rather better at the fast-twin light bomber than the single sea fighter, though I'm sure any expert could soon pick holes with my opinion on that

I would love a Putnam-esque reference to French combat aircraft 1930-40 (in English) if you, or anyone else, knows of a good one?

Well, numbers are speaking for themselves. With a 880-910 hp engine the D-520 performed 535 km/h at height. The 109E3 550 km/h with 1045 hp. The most impressive was the VG-33, reaching 560 km/h with a simple 850-860 hp engine.

Of course, it is only makes sense with planes with equivalent parameters and manouvrability. And realistic technical possibility. That is the case. Since soviet M-103 and M-105 developped respectivly in 37-39 were already giving 960 and 1100 hp at rated altitude by this time, proves that is was posible to boost the Hispano-Suiza 12Y engine.

Unfortunately, i can't advice about books in english.


Regards

VG

 

[davebender]

It needs a better supercharger.

I would not expect much improvement as long as Pierre Cot remains Minister of Air. Nationalizing the French aircraft industry appears to have been his only priority.

 

[VG-33]

Not when you consider the critical issue of production cost. The Me-109 was easy to manufacture. Hence they were in service in large numbers when it mattered most. The D.520 was not. For the same reason, the Japanese Ki-61 and Italian MC.202 were not equal to the Me-109 series either.

I don't sea the reason why it should be so. Even if the Me-109 was from the crush well adapted to mass production methods, a considerable effort was made by Marcel Bloch and Emile Dewoitine in that sense.

Have you got concrete numbers to compare production cost?

And even if it was the case, there was no particular reason to remind like that for ever.
For instance, Iliooshin DB-3/ DB-3F reduced it's work-hours and coast by 6 or 7 only by adapting american methods to the soviet industry in 1939.

VG-33

 

[davebender]

Not forever. But the French aviation industry will likely require at least a decade to adjust to marxist management methods. That leaves them crippled during the WWII era.

 

[Shortround6]

Well, numbers are speaking for themselves. With a 880-910 hp engine the D-520 performed 535 km/h at height. The 109E3 550 km/h with 1045 hp. The most impressive was the VG-33, reaching 560 km/h with a simple 850-860 hp engine.

Of course, it is only makes sense with planes with equivalent parameters and manouvrability. And realistic technical possibility. That is the case. Since soviet M-103 and M-105 developped respectivly in 37-39 were already giving 960 and 1100 hp at rated altitude by this time, proves that is was posible to boost the Hispano-Suiza 12Y engine.

Unfortunately, i can't advice about books in english.


Regards

VG

1100hp was about the limit for the Hispano Y engine without a major redesign. It had almost the displacement of a Griffon yet was almost 300lbs lighter than a Merlin. Not a bad engine when it was designed (which was number of years earlier than the Merlin) it didn't have the structural strength to stand up to either high boost or high RPM. It also had only two valves per cylinder (something the Russians changed with some of their higher powered versions) and had both the intake and exhaust on the outside of the engine using siamesed ports. SIX blow through carburators per engine didn't help power or maintainence much.