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Any wing will fail after the dive limitations are exceeded, or if the ailerons are badly set up. The 109's 'problems' with wing failures were not any more pronounced than your avarage WW2 fighters. It happened, from time to time, the usual culprit was the pilot exceeding the Vne, badly set up ailrons or simply worn-out, old airframes. Usually the problem was not as much the lack of structural strenght, but that conditions could arise which grossly overloaded the wings. No WW2 fighter's wing was built to resist twisting movements, for example, you will find the NACA making such reports with regards of the P-47 Thunderbolt.
Certainly there were quite a few fighter types more notorious for these kind of troubles than the 109.
I have never heard of this problem being mentioned on other fighter aircraft.
Certainly I have never heard of an experienced pilot of a fighter be limited in his actions by the fear of such a wing failure.
I also find it hard to believe that such a top pilot would have badly set up ailrons or worn out airframes.
Can I ask you to name any examples of other aircraft with similar problems?
I also notice that on the JG26 web site the following phrase
121 pilots were killed in aircraft accidents—wing or engine failure, bad weather, lack of fuel, takeoff and landing mishaps, air collisions, and the catch-all "loss of control".
No one would deny that the other types of accidents are common to all airforces, but again, I have never seen wing failure mentioned in the context of a normal accident. Again have you any examples?
It would appear that it was more common on 109's and 190's.
I believe I remember reading that at a certain RPM range the empennage (horizontal stab I believe) would suffer catastrophic failure due to sympathetic vibrations.
I have never heard of this problem being mentioned on other fighter aircraft.
Certainly I have never heard of an experienced pilot of a fighter be limited in his actions by the fear of such a wing failure.
I also find it hard to believe that such a top pilot would have badly set up ailrons or worn out airframes.
Can I ask you to name any examples of other aircraft with similar problems?
I also notice that on the JG26 web site the following phrase
121 pilots were killed in aircraft accidents—wing or engine failure, bad weather, lack of fuel, takeoff and landing mishaps, air collisions, and the catch-all "loss of control".
It would appear that it was more common on 109's and 190's.
Having said that, both the 51 and 47 had a stronger wing than a 109, maybe because they were both designed to carry pretty heavy wing armament and landing gear loads at mid-point of wing spar.
Thats a very false statement Bill.
The Bf-109 featured one of the strongest wings of any WW2 fighter, the wing being capable of withstanding over 13 G's. By comparison the P-51's wing would start seperating itself from the airframe at around 7-8 G's. And the P-51's wing wasn't designed to carry heavier loads either, the Bf-109 could carry the same loads without any problems.
The myth that the 109 featured a flimsy wing derives from the Bf-108's tendency to loose a wing in high G maneuvers - the 109's wing however was an entirely different construction.
Thats a very false statement Bill.
The Bf-109 featured one of the strongest wings of any WW2 fighter, the wing being capable of withstanding over 13 G's. By comparison the P-51's wing would start seperating itself from the airframe at around 7-8 G's. And the P-51's wing wasn't designed to carry heavier loads either, the Bf-109 could carry the same loads without any problems.
Simply stated, no fanfare - BS Soren
The 109 could carry two 110 gallon (750 pounds each) external fuel tanks plus 92 gallons each internal fuel plus 3 .50 Caliber machine Guns plus 1100 rounds of 50 caliber ammo? ROFLMAO - you are kidding aren't you? Oops - you're NOT? Which one of the 109s would you propose to compare 'wing loads' ?? against any version of a 51B/C/D
The myth that the 109 featured a flimsy wing derives from the Bf-108's tendency to loose a wing in high G maneuvers - the 109's wing however was an entirely different construction.
What model P-51? The C or the B to C conversion did not have the dorsal in front of the vertical stabilizer which caused the aircraft to be unstable at high speeds"At 525-550 mph the plane would start to porpoise uncontrollably and had to be slowed to regain control. The P 51 was redlined at 505 mph, meaning that this speed should not be exceeded. But when chasing 109s or 190s in a dive from 25-26,000 it often was exceeded, if you wanted to keep up with those enemy planes. "
I'd like to see the stress tests for that...Thats a very false statement Bill.
The Bf-109 featured one of the strongest wings of any WW2 fighter, the wing being capable of withstanding over 13 G's. By comparison the P-51's wing would start seperating itself from the airframe at around 7-8 G's. And the P-51's wing wasn't designed to carry heavier loads either, the Bf-109 could carry the same loads without any problems.
Always Günther Rall
Rall never dared push the 109 to the limit after his near fatal accident in an Emil early in his carreer, being of the firm believe that as soon as the slats deployed he would stall, you can see him mention this on many occasions.
And you know he was 'wrong' - how? Relate your time and experience with his to give you a respected opinion? What can you be thinkin'???
Bf-109 pilots could dive pull out of a high speed dive quicker and more safely than a P-51 pilot could, this happening on numerous occasions.
Note the 30 seconds of search results on Encounter Reports that directly contradict you
Robert C.Curtis, American P-51 pilot:
"My flight chased 12 109s south of Vienna. They climbed and we followed, unable to close on them. At 38,000 feet I fired a long burst at one of them from at least a 1000 yards, and saw some strikes. It rolled over and dived and I followed but soon reached compressibility with severe buffeting of the tail and loss of elevator control. I slowed my plane and regained control, but the 109 got away.
Note the 109 had more than a 1/2 mile lead, entered the dive and accelerated before the 51 did, and reached an altitude where he could regain control before the chasing Mustang did. It doesn't note any specific circumstances under which the 109 'got away' - was there cloud cover? did he lose sight of it? what?
On two other occasions ME 109s got away from me because the P 51d could not stay with them in a high-speed dive. At 525-550 mph the plane would start to porpoise uncontrollably and had to be slowed to regain control. The P 51 was redlined at 505 mph, meaning that this speed should not be exceeded. But when chasing 109s or 190s in a dive from 25-26,000 it often was exceeded, if you wanted to keep up with those enemy planes. "
See Above - and Below for many examples that make your thesis nearly silly
Thomas L. Hayes, Jr., American P-51 ace, 357th Fighter Group, 8 1/2 victories:
"Thomas L. Hayes, Jr. recalled diving after a fleeing Me-109G until both aircraft neared the sound barrier and their controls locked.
[I]Tommy Hayes was a great combat leader, but neither a/c were remotely close to 'sound barrier - he simply reached compressibility - and at airspeeds exceeding .75 Mach the 51 at the red line - but capable of .82.
It was at this airspeed that the 51 experienced yaw forces which got stronger and more dangerous. Further he didn't say how far out in front the 109 started and as the first ship to reach a density altitude, it would start to pull out before the Mustang would
Both pilots took measures to slow down, but to Hayes' astonishment, the Me-109 was the first to pull out of its dive.
See above and below
As he belatedly regained control of his Mustang, Hayes was grateful that the German pilot chose to quit while he was ahead and fly home instead of taking advantage of Hayes' momentary helplessness. Hayes also stated that while he saw several Fw-190s stall and even crash during dogfights, he never saw an Me-109 go out of control."[/I]
about 10 minutes of effort - here you go
http://www.spitfireperformance.com/m...rey-1may44.jpg
http://www.spitfireperformance.com/m...r-8april44.jpg
http://www.spitfireperformance.com/m...r-8april44.jpg
http://www.spitfireperformance.com/m...e-19july44.jpg
http://www.spitfireperformance.com/m...l-11sept44.jpg
http://www.spitfireperformance.com/m...er-16aug44.jpg
http://www.spitfireperformance.com/m...-29april44.jpg
I'm no engineer and I'm not all that swift so I asked , since I get closer on to the 109 on regular basis then most of you guys . I;ve asked those that have flown and repaired and they chuckled at 13gs
Agree, and that would include most WW2 fighters.13 G doesn't sound at all unreasonable as an ultimate load factor for a well built WW2 SE fighter. Max 12 Gs were quite typical. 'Safe' limits, with lots of safety built in was around 6-7 G for the aiframe. The safe limit was usually ~6.5 G for mid-war 109s, when fully loaded.
That may be, but even pre-war, rather lightly built proto Bf 109s had a documented break-point of 10,8 G, and I recall some intrumented test from mid-war which achieved somewhere around 13 or 14G without breakage. IIRC that was on a Bf 109G.
13 G doesn't sound at all unreasonable as an ultimate load factor for a well built WW2 SE fighter. Max 12 Gs were quite typical. 'Safe' limits, with lots of safety built in was around 6-7 G for the aiframe. The safe limit was usually ~6.5 G for mid-war 109s, when fully loaded.
I'm not claiming Me109 kicks P51 in a dive, but those reports really do not support your claims, in most of theese starting altitude is not mentioned, speed at any moment is again not mentioned, and no 109 in those reports lost control before it got shot.
Maybe 10minutes was not enough after all
Oh and BTW report 2 and 3 are same thing...