Bf109F vs P-38F
- Thread starter ricardo
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ccheese
Member In Perpetuity
This is what I found on the F-model:
"If the P38F was the plane the US Army evaluated during the early stages of the US Air War against Germany, then it is no wonder that it was deemed as an inferior aircraft. Climb performance was poor, especially compared to the Messerschmitt 109, diving performance was good, as long as you didn't exceed 375mph IAS. Acceleration was ok for the time, but still inferior to many designs (most notably both of German's fighters at the time, the Bf109 and Fw190). Roll rate was reasonable under 300mph, especially for such a big plane.
The biggest problem with the P38F is it's high speed handling. The P38F's handling at speeds higher than 375mph made a Bf109F seem like a Focke-Wulf. The roll rate was almost nonexistent at these speeds due to excessive stick forces (thus the need for the power-assisted ailerons of the P38L). Elevator control did not feel like the stick was in cement like the Bf109 did, but the turbulence and lift problems at these speeds meant that elevator deflection did not do much (P38L's dive flaps solved this problem). The Germans learned real quick that the best defense against an attacking P38F was a split-s (which the P38F couldn't follow due to slow roll), and a dive (which the P38F couldn't follow for risk of becoming a lawn dart, or shedding it's tail at high speeds).
The P38F is also one of the poorest vertical fighters. Thus virtually any plane with a decent vertical maneuvering capability can yoyo the P38F to death, and overcome any turn disadvantage. The poor vertical performance and diving abilities make the P38F very difficult to energy fight in."
Not good against a bf-109. But, yet again, the P-38's (later models)
did well in the Pacific.
Charles
"If the P38F was the plane the US Army evaluated during the early stages of the US Air War against Germany, then it is no wonder that it was deemed as an inferior aircraft. Climb performance was poor, especially compared to the Messerschmitt 109, diving performance was good, as long as you didn't exceed 375mph IAS. Acceleration was ok for the time, but still inferior to many designs (most notably both of German's fighters at the time, the Bf109 and Fw190). Roll rate was reasonable under 300mph, especially for such a big plane.
The biggest problem with the P38F is it's high speed handling. The P38F's handling at speeds higher than 375mph made a Bf109F seem like a Focke-Wulf. The roll rate was almost nonexistent at these speeds due to excessive stick forces (thus the need for the power-assisted ailerons of the P38L). Elevator control did not feel like the stick was in cement like the Bf109 did, but the turbulence and lift problems at these speeds meant that elevator deflection did not do much (P38L's dive flaps solved this problem). The Germans learned real quick that the best defense against an attacking P38F was a split-s (which the P38F couldn't follow due to slow roll), and a dive (which the P38F couldn't follow for risk of becoming a lawn dart, or shedding it's tail at high speeds).
The P38F is also one of the poorest vertical fighters. Thus virtually any plane with a decent vertical maneuvering capability can yoyo the P38F to death, and overcome any turn disadvantage. The poor vertical performance and diving abilities make the P38F very difficult to energy fight in."
Not good against a bf-109. But, yet again, the P-38's (later models)
did well in the Pacific.
Charles
- Thread starter
- #3
Thanks Ccheese. "Sweet and to the point". I like the P-38F design, as a fact I always preferred the early models of every airplane the USAAF threw to battle: P-51B, P-38F, P-47 Razorback, B-17F, F4U-1 Corsair Birdcage, P-40B.... but I was wondering how did the P-38 behave when they first saw action.
delcyros
Tech Sergeant
The P-38 did well in 1942 over North Africa and the central mediterranean. It had an excellent acceleration (better than contemporary US P-39 and P-40 models) and climb rate and reportedly handled well in those low and medium altitudes, where most of the fighting there took place.
But the -109F, esspeccially the -F4 is as deadly while enjoing a much more difficult target size. It also featured excellent climb, speed and acceleration (the -109F4 probably had the best linear stand off acceleration of any ww2 plane except the Me-163 rocket interceptor).
On the other hand a P-38 is more difficult to take out than a -109...
But the -109F, esspeccially the -F4 is as deadly while enjoing a much more difficult target size. It also featured excellent climb, speed and acceleration (the -109F4 probably had the best linear stand off acceleration of any ww2 plane except the Me-163 rocket interceptor).
On the other hand a P-38 is more difficult to take out than a -109...
Aussie1001
Staff Sergeant
THe p38 was also dogged by engine trouble was it not ?
I've heard that the engine was prone to overheating and that the turbo-supercharger just made it worse...
Reguards
Michael
I've heard that the engine was prone to overheating and that the turbo-supercharger just made it worse...
Reguards
Michael
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
The 109F was a better dogfighter. Why did you pick the P-38F? The P-38H was the first real combat capable P-38.
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
At altitude and in Europe. At middle altitudes and in the Pacific it did very well.
syscom3
Pacific Historian
The P38 wasnt even designed for dogfighting.
It was a bomber interceptor.
It was a bomber interceptor.
Aussie1001
Staff Sergeant
Thanks flyboyJ....
Voted for the Bf 109F.
Reasons why:
Read FBJ and syscoms posts.
Reasons why:
Read FBJ and syscoms posts.
mkloby
Senior Master Sergeant
Ahhh Bf 109Fs are my favorite warbirds! Then they ruined it with the G!
Aussie1001
Staff Sergeant
WHy apparantly the 109f was grossly undergunned.... that is what i've heard anyway, my favourite aeroplane is the hawker Tempest mk 5 series 2
Because with the added weight the Bf 109G started to lose the qualities that made the Bf 109 such a great aircraft.
SoD Stitch
Banned
Yes, the Gustav had the DB605 engine, instead of the older DB601, which increased the horsepower of the Gustav over the Freidrich; however, this was more than offset by the increased armament and armor, hence the loss in performance.
Yeap. Dont take me wrong though, the Bf 109G was still a marvelous fighter and a match for any aircraft especially with a pilot who knew how to exploit its advantages.
drgondog
Major
I had the same vote for same reasons - the P-38L was a much better match against the G/K than the P-38F was against the 109F
I think the 109F was the best all around 109 ever built. It had great performance for its time, great maneuverability and at the time was probably the best fighter in the sky.
My fav 109 is the 109G however but that is for another discussion.
My fav 109 is the 109G however but that is for another discussion.
drgondog
Major
I think the 109F was the best all around 109 ever built. It had great performance for its time, great maneuverability and at the time was probably the best fighter in the sky.
My fav 109 is the 109G however but that is for another discussion.
Chris - I'm thinking you are thinking 1942 for 109F being best? and I'm saying to myself the 109F Fw190 and the Spit are hard to choose from, with the Fw190 getting nod over Spit V...
Regards,
Bill
SoD Stitch
Banned
I think the 109F was the best all around 109 ever built. It had great performance for its time, great maneuverability and at the time was probably the best fighter in the sky.
My fav 109 is the 109G however but that is for another discussion.
My fave 109, also, Adler; probably the G-10 is my favorite, before they ruined it with the K-4. Decent performance, decent armament, and faster than a -190 in a straight line.
