billswagger
Airman 1st Class
- 256
- Mar 12, 2009
This topic came up in another thread so i thought i would expand on it.
The 109 was a sleek design from the beginning and didn't need much modification to get a bigger engine in it, however, there were parts better developed for those new high speeds and at higher altitudes.
Presumably the first 109s started out at about 280mph, and later models topped out at about 450mph.
The 109H-1 came up in another thread with a marked top speed up to 466mph.
This gives spread of performance over speed, in the range of 186mph.
I doubt you'd find other aircraft that come close to those figures seeing as most of them were faster out of the gate. The war was on, and benchmarks were set when developing an aircraft. In most respects if an aircraft wasn't up to par it never saw production anyway.
i've thought of a similar comparison of the P-35 into the P-47:
The P-35 started with a speed just over 300mph.
The P-43 achieved a top speed of 356mph
The early P-47s exceeded 400mph, while Bs and Cs managed over 420mph.
The P-47D managed to see gains over 430mph, and topping out above 440mph.
The introduction of the M engine enabled many aircraft in service to exceed those speeds. The actual M prototype tested at 488mph.
I think they sought to lower the drag profile with the J which achieved 507mph, but was later out shined by the P-72 which achieved 480 with out a turbocharger. Projections placed its top speed closer to 550mph.
A little incite reveals the R-4360 was also installed on a half dozen P-47s at a time when R-2800 was topping out around 3200hp.
Anyway, you take 300 from 550 and that gives about a 250 mph spread.
If you dont include the prototypes, then it ends up being closer to 200 mph.
the spread you gave the 109 was only 186mph and i dont even know that the 109H flew beyond prototypes.
I don't know if its a fair comparison, but you could also take the P-36 and measure its development into the P-40, in which the P-51 was born out of. I think you'd see similar speed spreads from those examples.
P-36 early prototypes flew at 281mph.
The fastest P-40s saw about 380mph.
while the development of the P-51 exceeded 400mph using the same power plant.
The P-51H saw speeds of 490mph.
Thats a speed spread of 209mph between the three war planes. Probably not as remarkable as the spreads achieved by Messerschmidt or Seversky aircraft, but none the less, the efforts of Curtiss also contributed a lot to the late Mustang.
There is also more that goes into performance than just speed. Many aircraft saw increases in climb and loading to allow for other functions during the war. You would also notice that most of the speed gains correlate with an altitude increase.
I also have to question the instrumentation during the mid 1940s, particularly where the top speeds are above 450mph, and at higher altitudes. Its likely the measurements are a good 10-20mph uber, but if we are just looking at spreads, they probably all had the same level of error.
Can you think of other aircraft companies that were able to make similar strides, particularly those developments that saw many similarities?
Bill
The 109 was a sleek design from the beginning and didn't need much modification to get a bigger engine in it, however, there were parts better developed for those new high speeds and at higher altitudes.
Presumably the first 109s started out at about 280mph, and later models topped out at about 450mph.
The 109H-1 came up in another thread with a marked top speed up to 466mph.
This gives spread of performance over speed, in the range of 186mph.
I doubt you'd find other aircraft that come close to those figures seeing as most of them were faster out of the gate. The war was on, and benchmarks were set when developing an aircraft. In most respects if an aircraft wasn't up to par it never saw production anyway.
i've thought of a similar comparison of the P-35 into the P-47:
The P-35 started with a speed just over 300mph.
The P-43 achieved a top speed of 356mph
The early P-47s exceeded 400mph, while Bs and Cs managed over 420mph.
The P-47D managed to see gains over 430mph, and topping out above 440mph.
The introduction of the M engine enabled many aircraft in service to exceed those speeds. The actual M prototype tested at 488mph.
I think they sought to lower the drag profile with the J which achieved 507mph, but was later out shined by the P-72 which achieved 480 with out a turbocharger. Projections placed its top speed closer to 550mph.
A little incite reveals the R-4360 was also installed on a half dozen P-47s at a time when R-2800 was topping out around 3200hp.
Anyway, you take 300 from 550 and that gives about a 250 mph spread.
If you dont include the prototypes, then it ends up being closer to 200 mph.
the spread you gave the 109 was only 186mph and i dont even know that the 109H flew beyond prototypes.
I don't know if its a fair comparison, but you could also take the P-36 and measure its development into the P-40, in which the P-51 was born out of. I think you'd see similar speed spreads from those examples.
P-36 early prototypes flew at 281mph.
The fastest P-40s saw about 380mph.
while the development of the P-51 exceeded 400mph using the same power plant.
The P-51H saw speeds of 490mph.
Thats a speed spread of 209mph between the three war planes. Probably not as remarkable as the spreads achieved by Messerschmidt or Seversky aircraft, but none the less, the efforts of Curtiss also contributed a lot to the late Mustang.
There is also more that goes into performance than just speed. Many aircraft saw increases in climb and loading to allow for other functions during the war. You would also notice that most of the speed gains correlate with an altitude increase.
I also have to question the instrumentation during the mid 1940s, particularly where the top speeds are above 450mph, and at higher altitudes. Its likely the measurements are a good 10-20mph uber, but if we are just looking at spreads, they probably all had the same level of error.
Can you think of other aircraft companies that were able to make similar strides, particularly those developments that saw many similarities?
Bill
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