BoB after: how would you like to see Spitfire further developed?

[Juha]

But they were either a defensive weapon or in the case of the LA5 working near the front . The Spit was doing escort work for 8th AF for a while and longer for 9th AF , if the powers to be were short sighted it wasn't fair on the pilots to be doing work their aircraft was not designed for

So did 109 or at least it should, in MTO and in East daytime bombing was fairly common. also La-5s and Yaks did a fair amount of escort work, mostly near front, I admit but Yak-9D and -9DD were developed to get more range out of standard Yak airframe.

Juha

 

[Juha]

That's a pretty narrow definition of "west" as it only includes France. Holland was obviously on the eastern front

Looking at the Luftwaffe claims list, the following units made claims on the channel front in the second half of 1941:

JG 2
JG 26
JFS 5
JG 1
JG 52
JG 53
ZG 76

I'm not sure what German fighter strength was in southern Norway, but as RAF squadrons were based all the way up to the Shetlands, I think they should be included.

JFS 5 was a training unit, a bit like OTU, and its instructors flew combat sorties.
JG 1 had only Stab and I. Gruppe from 1 Sept 1941 onwards, when the I./JG 1 was reformed, the original had became III./JG 27 in July 40.
Only I./JG 52 stayed in Holland when Stab and II./JG 52 moved to East in early June 41, III./JG 52 had already earlier moved to Rumania. And even I./JG 52 left in Sept 41
JG 53 is easy to check from Michael Holm's site, same to ZG 76, which was a Bf 110 formation.

Juha

 

[tomo pauk]

Thanks for additional input.
The Channel dash was involving some 250 fighters, and theoretically the 2 JGs would more than suffice. Yet, they needed to be reinforced with elements of another JG, JFS (training unit) and NJG (night fighter Geshcwader), so what would be true, real number of fighters per Geschwader in ETO?

 

[Glider]

Blimey, all I said was that I would put the additional fuel tanks in a little earlier.

 

[Milosh]

Tomo,
Alfred Price. Luftwaffe Data Book, 1997

online at Luftwaffe Orders of Battle 24 June 1941, 27 July 1942, and 17 May 1943

scroll down for May 1943.

 

[tomo pauk]

Many thanks, Milosh. The table about fighters on June 24th 1941 is quite telling:
-no JG has more than 4 Gruppen
-there is only 26 serviceable Bf-109s in Norway/Finland (of -E/-T variant)
-the two JGs in West (=France in this case) have ~120 fighters each in theory, total, but only 200 serviceable combined (Bf-109s (F-1,F-2))
-in Germany/Denmark there is 38 (yep, 38) Bf-109s (Fs?)

So that's under 250 Bf-109F-1s/F-2s west from Berlin, the handful of Bf-110s (mostly in NJGs, under 80 total, far less serviceable), then 26 Bf-109Es/Ts.

 

[tomo pauk]

Hi, all,
Could someone please provide the data about the difference in speed for a Spitfire that has retractable tailwheel vs. non-retractable; all else being equal. Thanks in advance

 

[fastmongrel]

I have come across tests of the single prototype MkIII N3297 fitted with MkVA wings, retractable tailwheel, no guns but ballasted and a Merlin 61 giving a max speed of 414 mph at 27,200ft weight given as 7,225 pounds.

A prototype MkIX AB 505 converted from a VC with a Merlin 61 and fixed tailwheel was tested at the same time and had a max speed of 409 mph at 28,000 ft weight 7,400 pounds.

These tests were of prototypes not production models and there is no mention of which prop AB 505 used but I assume it would most likely be a Rotol 4 blade 10 ft 9 inch same as N3297. Also the text says N3297 was in poor condition with gaps in the engine cowlings and paint missing from the wings and ailerons.

Hope this helps I can type up the full tests if you like but my scanner isnt working. The info came from The Spitfire Story by Alfred Price pages 128 and 167

 

[tomo pauk]

Thanks for the info, much appreciated
The quirk is that guns installed add to the drag, so it's impossible for me to deduce what was speed with the guns, but also with retractable tail wheel.

 

[fastmongrel]

The only tests I could find of similar aircraft with fixed and retractable tailwheel I am afraid. I would guess that the poor external condition of N3297 would make up for the lack of armament but that is speculation. Maybe there are tests of other types of aircraft that had a change from fixed to retractable during a models production run. Werent some early Bf109 Gs similar enough to late 109 Fs to make a rough comparison of speeds and maybe extrapolate a speed difference for a similar size airframe.

 

[tomo pauk]

Thanks again, the speed loss for the Bf-109Gs is 12 km/h (7.5 mph) if the tail wheel is non-retractable, according to the data found at Kurfurst's site.

Retain the fixed tail wheel - cost of at least 5 mph. A second-best Merlin, some 100 HP less on aggregate. All while receiving a more substantial armor armament package vs. the models of the 1940. Not good for the historical Mk.V. Luckily for the Allies, Germans made similar mistakes with their 109Gs.