Admiral Beez
Major
Now the 787 is suspect? I hope this new whistleblower has protection or he might not make it to testify.
View: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=y7x6nwn2_74
View: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=y7x6nwn2_74
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Boeing Names Independent Quality Review Leader
- Thread starter MIflyer
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SaparotRob
Unter Gemeine Geschwader Murmeltier XIII
Oy.
Thumpalumpacus
Major
These planes may fail "decades in the future". Well, sure.
Admiral Beez
Major
In 2020, United Airlines average fleet was 16 years old. Decades is not too far off.
How old are the fleets of the largest airlines?
The ten leading airlines in the world, when measured by the size of their rosters, operate a combined total of nearly 7,000 aircraft, but what is the average age of each airline’s fleet?
3. United Airlines – 16 years
| Type | Number | Average Age |
|---|---|---|
| Airbus A319 | 86 | 18.7 |
| Airbus A320 | 96 | 22.2 |
| Boeing 737 | 352 | 13.3 |
| Boeing 757 | 61 | 21.8 |
| Boeing 767 | 54 | 23.1 |
| Boeing 777 | 96 | 17.2 |
| Boeing 787 | 60 | 3.8 |
| Total | 805 | 16 |
Thumpalumpacus
Major
In 2020, United Airlines average fleet was 16 years old. Decades is not too far off.
How old are the fleets of the largest airlines?
The ten leading airlines in the world, when measured by the size of their rosters, operate a combined total of nearly 7,000 aircraft, but what is the average age of each airline’s fleet?www.key.aero
3. United Airlines – 16 years
Type Number Average Age Airbus A319 86 18.7 Airbus A320 96 22.2 Boeing 737 352 13.3 Boeing 757 61 21.8 Boeing 767 54 23.1 Boeing 777 96 17.2 Boeing 787 60 3.8 Total 805 16
Right, that was my admittedly sarcastic point above. After 16 years, structural integrity is as much about regular inspection and maintenance protocols as it is about airframe design.
Admiral Beez
Major
True, but given Boeing's neglect of quality assurance I'm willing to give this new whistleblower a chance to make his point and to have his claims judged by the FAA and Boeing itself. Maybe it's all hot air.
Thumpalumpacus
Major
Oh, not dismissing the point, just saying that after the first few years of a frame's life airline inspection/maintenance has to own some responsibility too. That's more a jab at the media than anything else.
Good old "No news like bad news".
SaparotRob
Unter Gemeine Geschwader Murmeltier XIII
If it bleeds, it leads.
Admiral Beez
Major
Just make a good product with a focus on quality and you'll make no news to report. The very reason the media is giving this new 787 gossip any credence is all the smoke and seeming Boeing subterfuge around the 737 issues. Without two 737 Max crashes and another blowing out a door plug, any unsubstantiated disclosures about the 787 would have the same weight as a report of Sasquatch in the National Enquirer.
Thumpalumpacus
Major
The Max8 crashes put the stinkeye on Boeing, and rightfully so in my non-aviator opinion. You don't cut corners with 200 lives aboard a few hundred flights daily.
Thumpalumpacus
Major
Boeing whistleblower Sam Salehpour appeared to tear up as he told a Senate committee he was "at peace" with his decision to publicly share his story.
Salehpour, a quality engineer at Boeing, alleged he was isolated and threatened after he flagged concerns that portions of the 787 Dreamliner fuselage were improperly connected as a result of the company's "rush to address the bottlenecks in production," resulting in gaps that could lead to "premature fatigue failure."
The engineer says he was taken off projects, left out of meetings and harassed by his boss after he raised concerns and believes someone punctured his tire with a bolt while he was at work.
"It really scares me, believe me, but I am at peace," Salehpour told the Senate Permanent Subcommittee on Investigations during a Wednesday hearing.
"If something happens to me, I am at peace because I feel like coming forward, I will be saving a lot of lives," he added.
thehill.com
I'm all for exposing wrong-doing, but this strikes me as histrionics aimed at poisoning the well.
Salehpour, a quality engineer at Boeing, alleged he was isolated and threatened after he flagged concerns that portions of the 787 Dreamliner fuselage were improperly connected as a result of the company's "rush to address the bottlenecks in production," resulting in gaps that could lead to "premature fatigue failure."
The engineer says he was taken off projects, left out of meetings and harassed by his boss after he raised concerns and believes someone punctured his tire with a bolt while he was at work.
"It really scares me, believe me, but I am at peace," Salehpour told the Senate Permanent Subcommittee on Investigations during a Wednesday hearing.
"If something happens to me, I am at peace because I feel like coming forward, I will be saving a lot of lives," he added.
Boeing whistleblower says he’s ‘at peace’ if something happens to him
Boeing whistleblower Sam Salehpour appeared to tear up as he told a Senate committee he was “at peace” with his decision to publicly share his story. Salehpour, a quality engineer at Boeing, allege…
thehill.com
I'm all for exposing wrong-doing, but this strikes me as histrionics aimed at poisoning the well.
Admiral Beez
Major
I agree, and I think he's over the top here, but I also think he genuinely believes his life is at risk. The last whistleblower was seemingly (to some) suicided, so a paranoid mind might make the leap.
Thumpalumpacus
Major
I get that, and paranoid or truly under the gun, putting it out in legal hearings might make sense.
It also might be agenda-driven in its own right. Hard to say, and I like evidence.
GreenKnight121
Senior Airman
- 740
- Mar 16, 2014
However, the 787 has had years of problems, coverups of those, and retaliation against multiple whistleblowers, so this looks like just another in a string of legit complaints/warnings that Boeing spent more time addressing than they did fixing the issues that generated the complaints/warnings.
Admiral Beez
Major
Is it truly that difficult to make high quality aircraft and still make a healthy profit? Boeing did exactly that for decades before the MD merger.
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Thumpalumpacus
Major
Were any of them murdered, as this whistle-blower insinuates might happen to himself?
ThomasP
Senior Master Sergeant
The 'good old days' syndrome.
There were 1800x 727 built, beginning operations in 1962. There have been a total of 353x "incidents" and "accidents" including 120x hull losses (ie total destruction of the aircraft for all intents) with the loss of 4211 lives. This was over a period of about 60 years. Passenger capacity varied from 106-156 between the early and later stretched models.
There have been 11,660x 737 built as of 2023, beginning operations in 1968. There have been a total of 537x "incidents" and "accidents" including 234x hull losses (ie total destruction of the aircraft for all intents) with the loss of 5779 lives. This has been over a period of about 55 years. There are another ~4400x 737 currently on order - with more expected. Passenger capacity varied from about 100 to 200 between the early and later stretched models.
There have been 1727x 777 built as of 2023, beginning operations in 1995. There have been a total of 30x "incidents" and "accidents" including 5x hull losses (ie total destruction of the aircraft for all intents) with the loss of 541 lives. This has been over a period of about 29 years. There are another ~540x 777 currently on order - with more expected. Passenger capacity varied from about 300 to 360 between the early and later stretched models.
Lives lost per airframe delivered and operated:
727____2.34
737____0.50
777____0.31
I was going to put together comparative lives lost per PAX mile (ie miles flown per passenger flight) but I could not find complete data sets for any of the aircraft due to the systems of reporting. There is probably a pretty good record of such out there somewhere, but I do not know where to find it.
Having said that, Delta has some readily available total PAX mileage figures, and as might be expected from the range capabilities of the different airframes, their 777 fleet is flying significantly more miles per flight cycle than their 737 fleet. The nominal range ratio of the models is 2:1 in favor of the 777. So if you use deaths per PAX mile the safety record will be even greater than that for the lives lost per airframe delivered and operated. (I think)
The only other potentially major factor is the age of the fleets. The average age of the 777 fleet is significantly less than 1/2 the age of the 727 and 737 fleets, although without comparing the airframe replacement rates (yielding the airframe mileage life/flight cycle) I do not know how to effectively evaluate the effect of this factor.
There were 1800x 727 built, beginning operations in 1962. There have been a total of 353x "incidents" and "accidents" including 120x hull losses (ie total destruction of the aircraft for all intents) with the loss of 4211 lives. This was over a period of about 60 years. Passenger capacity varied from 106-156 between the early and later stretched models.
There have been 11,660x 737 built as of 2023, beginning operations in 1968. There have been a total of 537x "incidents" and "accidents" including 234x hull losses (ie total destruction of the aircraft for all intents) with the loss of 5779 lives. This has been over a period of about 55 years. There are another ~4400x 737 currently on order - with more expected. Passenger capacity varied from about 100 to 200 between the early and later stretched models.
There have been 1727x 777 built as of 2023, beginning operations in 1995. There have been a total of 30x "incidents" and "accidents" including 5x hull losses (ie total destruction of the aircraft for all intents) with the loss of 541 lives. This has been over a period of about 29 years. There are another ~540x 777 currently on order - with more expected. Passenger capacity varied from about 300 to 360 between the early and later stretched models.
Lives lost per airframe delivered and operated:
727____2.34
737____0.50
777____0.31
I was going to put together comparative lives lost per PAX mile (ie miles flown per passenger flight) but I could not find complete data sets for any of the aircraft due to the systems of reporting. There is probably a pretty good record of such out there somewhere, but I do not know where to find it.
Having said that, Delta has some readily available total PAX mileage figures, and as might be expected from the range capabilities of the different airframes, their 777 fleet is flying significantly more miles per flight cycle than their 737 fleet. The nominal range ratio of the models is 2:1 in favor of the 777. So if you use deaths per PAX mile the safety record will be even greater than that for the lives lost per airframe delivered and operated. (I think)
The only other potentially major factor is the age of the fleets. The average age of the 777 fleet is significantly less than 1/2 the age of the 727 and 737 fleets, although without comparing the airframe replacement rates (yielding the airframe mileage life/flight cycle) I do not know how to effectively evaluate the effect of this factor.
The problem with these rates? They are not taking into account the root causes of the incidents/accidents and hull rates. The vast majority were likely pilot or maintenance related, human error, etc. The vast majority were not related to manufacturing or quality related.
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