Boeing Names Independent Quality Review Leader

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Hire back the guys who built the BUFF, which is neither Fat nor Ugly.

Its not about the people hired, its about the pressure put on the people to deliver.

The industry has become so competitive, and the airlines want their aircraft built fast.

Anyone who thinks this is a "Boeing" problem, well I've got a Bridge to sell you.

 

[SaparotRob]

I just don't like disparaging remarks about the Stratofortress.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I just don't like disparaging remarks about the Stratofortress.

The BUFF is in a league of its own.

 

[BobB]

I wonder about some aspects of the F-22. In a procurement class I was taking a representative of the F-22 SPO said that the SPO chief and his deputy decided to see what mechanics have to put up with and changed the engine on an F-15. As a result they vowed there would be NO use of safety wire on the F-22. Now, I am no good at safety wiring and I never had class on how to do it properly. I can't even make it look good with being ineffective. But I am quite sure that I know more about safety wiring on an aircraft than those guys did. True, getting holes stuck in your hands is no fun but it is an inexpensive practice, even though it sometimes takes me three times to get it even close to being right. So how much did the taxpayers have to pay for an alternative method just because some guys who did not know what they were doing got their fingers stuck?

I think it was in the 1990's that there was talk about eliminating safety wire because it could damage the NBC(nuclear biological chemical) suits that might have to be worn by mechanics. Since I was working on supporting old aircraft it didn't affect me as it never got to be a requirement for us.

 

[GreenKnight121]

I've still got a pair of safety pliers - the ones that locked onto the wire and spun themselves as you pulled out the center rod.

The last time I had to safety wire anything was in 1989, just before my EOS.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

Hire back the guys who built the BUFF, which is neither Fat nor Ugly.

It wasn't fat, you're right, pretty slender -- but if you were on the wrong end, there was nothing pretty about it. A three-ship flight carrying 51 750-lb bombs apiece could put a piece of shrapnel into every square yard of a space one mile wide and three miles long, so our aircrew told us.

 

[MIflyer]

I've still got a pair of safety pliers - the ones that locked onto the wire and spun themselves as you pulled out the center rod.

I have one of those and still use them on my airplane and recently for other things as well. I have them here at home right now because I have gotten so irritated at trying to find the right size spring clips that secure the fuel hose on lawnmowers that I have started using safety wire instead. And on the airplane there are spots where those screw clamps for hoses will not fit but the safety wire does just fine.

 

[SaparotRob]

It wasn't fat, you're right, pretty slender -- but if you were on the wrong end, there was nothing pretty about it. A three-ship flight carrying 51 750-lb bombs apiece could put a piece of shrapnel into every square yard of a space one mile wide and three miles long, so our aircrew told us.

Fortunately for me, I'm on the right end. Go Boeing!

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

Fortunately for me, I'm on the right end. Go Boeing!

Boeing built the planes, but goddamned good American aviators put the planes to good use. A sword is only as good as the arm swinging it.

 

[MIflyer]

New from Avweb:

"Boeing is facing new scrutiny over its handling of the 737 MAX MCAS (Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System) situation. The New York Times (NYT) reported today (Oct. 9) it has uncovered emails supporting claims that Ethiopian Airlines' chief pilot reached out to the manufacturer in late 2018 with an "urgent" request for information a month after the MCAS-related crash of a Lion Air 373 MAX in Indonesia, but Boeing declined to respond. Three months after the chief pilot's request, an Ethiopian Airlines 737 MAX crashed shortly after takeoff killing all 157 on board. The main cause of the accident was determined to be a failure of the MCAS related to a faulty angle-of-attack sensor."

"The Allied Pilots Association (APA), which serves pilots for American Airlines, supports Ethiopian in its claim, citing that after the Lion Air crash, Boeing had proactively reached out to U.S. airlines and pilots to explain technical MCAS safety issues, such as how the system interacts with angle-of-attack data. American Boeing 737 MAX pilot Dennis Tajer, APA's spokesman, said, "Who knows what [Ethiopian Airlines] would have done with the information, but not having it seals the deal. Any information given the Ethiopian pilots, like we had, could have made the difference between life and death."

"The December 2022 Ethiopian aviation authority's accident report read, in part, "The investigation found the questions raised by the airline to be safety critical, and if Boeing had answered the questions raised by the training department either directly or indirectly [the accident might not have happened]."

"Boeing's claim that it was prohibited from discussing details of the MCAS technology with Ethiopian Airlines was based on Annex 13 established by the International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO) to address crash investigations. One of the elements of Annex 13 is that it is meant to provide safety information but is also designed to avoid establishing blame in accidents. Boeing claimed that the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) supported its decision not to share information with Indonesian Airlines based on the Annex 13 provision. But former NTSB Chair Jim Hall said of Annex 13, "I am not aware of any incidents where that article has been used to prevent the transfer of critical safety information."

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

FORT WORTH, Texas (AP) — Relatives of some of the 346 people who died in two crashes involving Boeing 737 Max planes are in court Friday, where their lawyers are asking a federal judge to throw out a plea agreement that the aircraft manufacturer struck with federal prosecutors.

The family members want the government to put Boeing on trial, where the company could face tougher punishment.

In July, Boeing agreed to plead guilty to a single felony count of conspiracy to commit fraud in connection with winning regulatory approval of the Max. The settlement between Boeing and the Justice Department calls for Boeing — a big government contractor — to pay a fine and be placed on probation.

Passengers' relatives call it a sweetheart deal that fails to consider the lives lost.

[...]

Lawyers for the government and the company filed court briefs defending the settlement, and lawyers for the passengers' families explained their opposition to the deal. U.S. District Judge Reed O'Connor will get to question both sides during Friday's hearing in Fort Worth, Texas.

If the judge accepts the guilty plea, he must also approve the sentence that Boeing and prosecutors agreed upon — he can't impose different terms. It is unclear when O'Connor will decide the matter.

https://apnews.com/article/boeing-737-max-victims-plea-agreement-fraud-7b772b2ae171b0e3cb9916d10d05652f

 

[MIflyer]

In July, Boeing agreed to plead guilty to a single felony count of conspiracy to commit fraud

In my USC Masters program in the mid-80's, one particularly interesting professor (who had flown P-51's in WW2 and worked a great deal with the US automotive industry after the war) pointed out that some court cases indicated that companies were going to have to designate a position he described as "The Vice President In Charge of Going to Jail."

 

[Jabberwocky]

Its not about the people hired, its about the pressure put on the people to deliver.

The industry has become so competitive, and the airlines want their aircraft built fast.

Anyone who thinks this is a "Boeing" problem, well I've got a Bridge to sell you.

I'd like to think it's not a Boeing problem, but the evidence about some fairly fundamental flaws in Boeing's engineering and business cultures keep piling up. That's not just me saying that, the US FAA and the GAO have had some SCATHING words about Boeing's performance in the last 4-5 years.

Frankly, the company is a mess and some very credible and seasoned industry watchers (Scott Hamilton, John Ostrower, even Tim 'I never met a 777 I didn't like' Clark) are talking about a potential bankruptcy if things aren't turned around.

The latest announcement is that they're going to cut 10% of their workforce (of approximately 170,000). This comes as Boeing's largest union (the IAM) is on strike for the first time since 2008, which will basically halt all production in the Pacific Northwest and severely crimp the non-union plant in North Charleston (which makes 787s). Cash burn from the strike is estimated at anywhere from $200 to $400 million per month.

In addition, Boeing is going to can the 767F from 2027, and only make military variants (tankers). The 777X's EIS got pushed back to 2026 (which was inevitable anyways), the 787 and 737 are having NEW nacelle problems and Boeing still isn't complying with the FAA's instructions on wiring looms.

Not to mention Boeing's military and space divisions continually failing to make contract and cost deadlines on their fixed-price contracts. I think they're batting 0 for 6 on major programmes at the moment - F-15EX, T-7A, Starliner, KC-46 and a couple others I can't recall.

Here's something to think on - for every $1 that Boeing has reported in profit in the last 40 years, it has spent $6 on share buybacks and stock-price related executive compensation schemes.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

A tentative agreement has been reached between Boeing and the roughly 33,000 machinists that went on strike last month, the union announced Saturday.

"We are finalizing the strike settlement agreement, which will be completed soon, along with additional contract details to provide you with a clear understanding of the offer," the International Association of Machinists (IAM) said in a post on social platform X.

The latest proposal from Boeing includes a 35 percent wage increase over four years and reinstates an incentive pay plan, with a guaranteed minimum annual payout of 4 percent. The union, which represents roughly 600,000 active and retired machinists, said a vote will be held next week for the latest contract negotiations.

Company contributions to workers' 401(k) plans would also increase with the deal, though it does not restore the original pension plan from a decade ago, CNN reported.

https://thehill.com/business/4942747-boeing-mechanists-union-tentative-deal-end-strike/

 

[Denniss]

https://edition.cnn.com/2024/10/23/investing/boeing-losses/index.html

 

[buffnut453]

A tentative agreement has been reached between Boeing and the roughly 33,000 machinists that went on strike last month, the union announced Saturday.

"We are finalizing the strike settlement agreement, which will be completed soon, along with additional contract details to provide you with a clear understanding of the offer," the International Association of Machinists (IAM) said in a post on social platform X.

The latest proposal from Boeing includes a 35 percent wage increase over four years and reinstates an incentive pay plan, with a guaranteed minimum annual payout of 4 percent. The union, which represents roughly 600,000 active and retired machinists, said a vote will be held next week for the latest contract negotiations.

Company contributions to workers' 401(k) plans would also increase with the deal, though it does not restore the original pension plan from a decade ago, CNN reported.

https://thehill.com/business/4942747-boeing-mechanists-union-tentative-deal-end-strike/

Glad they've reached an agreement.

However, how can a "guaranteed minimum annual payout of 4 percent" be deemed an "incentive pay plan"? If I just turn up and do my job I get 4% but if I work my fingers to the bone I may get, what, 5% or 5.25%? I know which path most people would follow.

What happens if the company doesn't make a profit? Does Boeing then have to eat itself by continuing to pay 4% minimum to all its machinists?

Seems more like a disincentive plan than anything else...unless I'm reading it wrong.

 

[Jabberwocky]

Glad they've reached an agreement.

Not yet. The strike settlement agreement needs to be approved by IAM members. Union vote is happening now (23rd).

Social media scuttlebutt is that members are going to reject it - mostly due to killing off some pension plans and no changes to base pay rates for new workers (which are roughly $19-24 per hour, depending on the job). To put that into contect, some striking Boeing workers reported the Amazon warehouse near Boeing Field if offering starting pay rates that are $5 an hour better than what they're getting at Boeing.

However, how can a "guaranteed minimum annual payout of 4 percent" be deemed an "incentive pay plan"? If I just turn up and do my job I get 4% but if I work my fingers to the bone I may get, what, 5% or 5.25%? I know which path most people would follow. What happens if the company doesn't make a profit? Does Boeing then have to eat itself by continuing to pay 4% minimum to all its machinists? Seems more like a disincentive plan than anything else...unless I'm reading it wrong.

The AMPP incentive plan is based around safety, quality and productivity metrics, rather than profitability (basically how many aircraft can you make, with how many defects and without getting caught for unsafe working practices).

Current rates are 3-6% of base pay. Boeing calculates wages as 'Base Pay + General Wage Increase + Cost of Living Adjustment', then bonuses on top. So, if your base is $25 an hour, then AMPP gives you a minimum of $0.75 to $1.50 per hour extra. The bottom end of that would go up to $1 per hour.

 

[buffnut453]

Not yet. The strike settlement agreement needs to be approved by IAM members. Union vote is happening now (23rd).

Social media scuttlebutt is that members are going to reject it - mostly due to killing off some pension plans and no changes to base pay rates for new workers (which are roughly $19-24 per hour, depending on the job). To put that into contect, some striking Boeing workers reported the Amazon warehouse near Boeing Field if offering starting pay rates that are $5 an hour better than what they're getting at Boeing.



The AMPP incentive plan is based around safety, quality and productivity metrics, rather than profitability (basically how many aircraft can you make, with how many defects and without getting caught for unsafe working practices).

Current rates are 3-6% of base pay. Boeing calculates wages as 'Base Pay + General Wage Increase + Cost of Living Adjustment', then bonuses on top. So, if your base is $25 an hour, then AMPP gives you a minimum of $0.75 to $1.50 per hour extra. The bottom end of that would go up to $1 per hour.

Thanks for the clarification but that still doesn't answer my question about the guaranteed minimum payout of 4%. A guaranteed payout isn't an incentive, it's a back-handed pay rise.

Also, agree that the union members have yet to vote on accepting the latest offer….so it's not a done deal yet.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

They rejected the offer. 64% voted no.

 

[buffnut453]

They rejected the offer. 64% voted no.