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Thank you. That is a lot of work.Here's a graph that I put together along time ago (that I have recently tried to clean up a little) that shows wing loading vs gross weight for a number of WWII type fighters.................................
Unfortunately a lot of what is written about the Buffalo is rubbish.Any takers?
I think there was a document on Ford's website that listed the differences between the F2A-2 and B-339E.Unfortunately a lot of what is written about the Buffalo is rubbish.
I am not saying that the Buffalo was a good plane, just that many of the explanations/stories are rubbish
From the article linked to.
Only 11 of the 54 F2A-1s produced went to the USN – the remainder were modified and sold to Finland, where they were highly successful in combat against the Red Air Force throughout the Continuation War of 1941-1944. This was partly due to their good reflector gunsights and reliable armament of four .5-inch heavy machine-guns.
US Navy relinquished their spots in the production que and ordered F2A-2 aircraft to be delivered later. Maybe semantics but the Finns got planes as built brand new. They were not modified although there were differences.
The Buffalo's problems really began with the later export versions, especially the Brewster Model 339E, 170 of which were supplied to British and Commonwealth air forces. This was based on the US Navy's F2A-2, but was distinctly inferior, with a less-powerful engine (1,100hp compared to 1,200hp in the F2A-2).
Been over this before, the US was going to get G200 series engines. Foreign orders got G100s. Finns got the older G series.
Gs had aluminum crankcases, G100s had steel crankcases, G200s had a new stronger steel crankcase that was lighter (or no heavier) the G100s steel crankcase. You can't "tweek one engine and turn into a later version.
French were supposed to get G200s in their Hawks A-4s, first delivered April 8th 1940.
poor performance The real killer was that RAF-specified modifications, such as improved cockpit armour, had increased the aircraft's total weight by 900lb, despite the removal of naval fittings such as arrestor hooks and life rafts. Nominal maximum speed was reduced from 344mph to 330mph but, in practice, even this was rarely reached as Brewster frequently fitted reconditioned Wright Cyclone engines removed from Douglas DC-3 airliners instead of the specified 'new-build' engines.
The RAF wasn't specifying much of anything, except perhaps some armor and fuel tank protection (maybe they bought some P-39 cockpit heaters?) Their order of 170 aircraft followed the Belgian order for 40 aircraft which followed the US order for the F2A-2. The XFA2-2 was delivered in July of 1939 with the heavier engine and larger propeller. The US Navy was part and parcel of the weight spiral, The Dutch and British may have joined it but they did not start it. The engine was around 200lbs heavier than the earlier engine, split between the propeller reduction gear (the old G series could be fitted with a reduction gear for about 100lbs) the new steel crankcase (about 50lbs) and other stronger heavier parts.
The Bigger diameter, slower turning prop gained around or up to 80lbs, Different props were fitted to the different customers aircraft.
The USN was having trouble with the landing failing on the F2A-1s. There was some beefing up of the landing gear at this time.
But somehow this gets blamed on the British and their unnamed (except for improved armor [the F2A-1 had none, not hard to improve) specified modifications.
I really want to see the test reports for the 344mph Buffalo. Same test pilot that flew the XP-39 at 390mph before Langley wrecked it
USN F2A-2 with factory Fresh, G200, 1200hp engine was good for low 320s mph, at 5942lbs. (that weight is the same as a two gun fighter with 110 US gal of fuel).
The much heavier F2A-3 was about 5mph slower. However an F2A-3 with 4 guns and 180 gallons of fuel was 2 minutes slower to 20,000ft than an F2A-2 with two guns and 110 gal/fuel.
The re-conditioned G100 engines may not have been making rated power. But somebody was lying about the performance to begin with.
AHT does not have a breakdown for the weights of the export 339s. They do have weight break downs for the weights of 239 (Finnish) and the F2A-3.
When did the increases occur?
Wing went up 72lbs
Landing gear went up 68lbs
power plant went up 547lbs and we know where about 280lbs of that came from.
For the British and the Dutch it may have been question of getting planes with G100 engines in a few month or getting planes with G200 engines several months later.
USN traded some of their production F2A-2 que slots for later delivery. (?)
From the Annals of the Brewster Buffalo linked to above.
"I had to go off and clean the windscreen of oil. They had an engine in the hanger, and they said these [push-rod] valve springs are too strong. They were discolored. We didn't have any valve springs suitable, so they just stayed on. They tried to raise the rems from 2250 to 2500 to get more power, and that's what caused the trouble. I never had a failure, personally. The oil used to come out and drip off the power wheel? It would just get too hot and overflow. Everybody was faced with that problem. As soon as you went flat out, you see, as soon as the engine was at full throttle, this would happen. After the war started, we were told not to run at full throttle. We used to run along at 1800 rems, as smooth as you like, but if you went to 2500, these problems developed. But you had to use full throttle. The Japanese fighters were very good."
I have no idea what was going on here. The G100 engines were never rated by Wright (or the FAA) at over 2350rpm and in fact they were limited to 1 minute at that speed. The G200s were rated at 2500rpm for take-off and 5 minutes (?).
As mentioned a bunch of times the two engines used different crankcases, different crankshafts, different vibration dampers, different cylinder barrels, different cylinder heads (both with more finning on the newer engine). Running the older engine at the higher rpm was definite abuse.
In another memoir the writer states that their engines were stamped at 1250hp on the builders plate. I sure wasn't there, but no factory spec sheet you can find today (or FAA type certificate) says 1250hp for the G200 engine let alone the G100 engine.
Make of that what you will.
Yes and no.In generalfrom the data that I have on the Hawk shws two options, one with a Wright Cyclone engine and the other with a Pratt & Whitney engine. In nthis data there also does not appear to be any weight included for armor or self-sealing fuel tanks etc.
No mention so far of any protection except seat back armor Normal gross weight for the A-3 was 5,692lbs. The A-4 normal was 5,750lbs, max gross was 6,662lbs so something is off as 60 US gallons is only about 360lbs. armor is 40lbs per sq ft if 1 in thick. or 4 sq ft for 6.35 mm armor. adjust as needed.I believe that both variant may have been used (or at least ordered by) the French Armee d' Air. In general the wing loading of the Hawks fall very similar to the early F2A-1's and B239 which were also not initially fitted with armor or self-sealing tanks (though I believe that in Finland they may have added some form of armor later)
Well the Hawk at about 13% more gross wing area. Net was even more.As such the Brewster's wing size does not really seam to appear abnormal when compred the those Curtiss fighters either.
Overall the point that I am trying to address about the F2A/Buffalo family with this graph is that sometimes on the internet or in books like "The World's Worst Airplanes" (I believe) you will sometimes see authors/commentors making the claim that the F2A and/or Buffalo had a "miniscule wing", but from the data that I have seen, and tried to represent in the graph below, it does not appear to me that the wing is under sized in comparison to other contemporary designs.
Here I realize that while the original F2A was designed for a fairly light weight and that weight ended up growing alot for later models, this does not appear to have been uncommon for for some of the other planes of that time frame (such as the F4F/FM family) and that even in its heaviest configurations the F2A/Buffalo wing loadings still appear to be similar to those for the late model F4Fs & FM aircraft etc. That is not to say that had the plane would not have benefitted from a bigger wing in its later variants, but rather just that the claims of a "miniscule wing" do not really seem to be based all that much in actually data, as far as I can see from the infromation that I have been able to review.
Hi,Hi PFVA63,
Thanks for the interesting graph. Lots to process there.
Just wondering, what reference are you using for those wing loading and gross weight data?
...
Also, did you swap the P-51B and P-47 positions in the chart? Unless I'm reading things wrong, you have the P-51B weighing in around 14,400 lbs gross weight, and the P-47 at 10,200 lbs. The P-51B weighed in around 8400-9350 lbs, depending on loading and period.
Hi,
Thank you for pointing that out, I also previously swapped the F4U and F6F number as well. I have corrected them in the plot below.
Most all the data for US planes (except the Hawk) come from the book "America's 100,000", I will try and dig out my copy of the book later to confirm the values, but what I have used are;
I have no idea how to make a graph