Brewster F2A Buffalo or P-39 Airacobra?

[kool kitty89]

I hadn't realized that either the F2A or F4F had belly windows until I played Il-2 Sturmovik (1946 DVD: entire collection up to 1946 addition). The F2A certainly has a more substantial vewing area.

From what I've seen and read all but the XF2A-1 had the window there. A side note: Brewster sold the prototype to the Finns along with the B-239's. Note: aldo, it is incorrect to refer to the Finns B-239's as Buffalos, they were active before the RAF even named the a/c and the Finns simply called the a/c the "Brewster" or "Sky Pearl."

We can't go looking at them now and comparing since there's only one intact surviving:
From Wikipedia:

Surviving Brewster Buffalo are extremely rare, as their construction quality was generally poor, and most were quickly dispatched to foreign military service. It was long thought no intact Buffalo remained, but during Summer 1998, a Finnish B-239 (serial no. BW-372) was discovered in a Russian lake, Big Kolejärvi, about 50 kilometers from Segezha, Russia. This aircraft was identified as one of the 44 Model 239s sold to Finland during the Winter War.

On 25 June 1942, BW-372 piloted by Lieutenant Lauri Pekuri was in a formation of eight Brewsters that encountered a mixed squadron of Soviet Hurricanes and MiG-3s. In the clash, seven Soviet aircraft were damaged. Lieutenant Pekuri shot down two Hurricane fighters (he had to his credit 18 kills, including seven Hurricanes) but his fighter was hit by heavy cannon fire from a MiG-3 and he was forced to ditch the burning Brewster in Big Kolejärvi lake. Pekuri survived with minor injuries and managed to walk 20 km to the Finnish lines.

The aircraft was recovered from the lake in 1998, and after extensive negotiations with Russian officials, it was finally transported to the United States. The Brewster fighter finally reached the Naval Aviation Museum in Pensacola, Florida, on 18 August 2004. After discovering the historic nature of the aircraft, original plans to restore and display it as an F2A from the Battle of Midway were quickly dispensed with. The museum plans to reassemble the Brewster and display it exactly as it came from the lake in Russia. Damage caused by enemy fire and subsequent crash landing will not be disturbed. As near as possible, it will be fully authentic and original and instantly recognizable as a Finnish Air Force B-239 at a point in time when it made its last flight in hostile skies and settled to the bottom of the lake.

Another interesting note is that the F2A is the only American built fighter aircraft using a radial engine and with a conical prop spinner to see service in WWII.

 

[Graeme]

Another 'glass-bottomed' Brewster was their SB2A-2 dive bomber..

 

[Elvis]

KK89,

Sounds like we're in agreement.

Here's something; The Last Flight of BW-372

Its a computer generated thing, but kinda cool to watch.



Elvis

 

[kool kitty89]

Aparently belly windows were somewhat common in USN carrier a/c.

I'd probably take a P-40 (depending on model), or maybe a Hurricane over either though. One problem with the Hurricane Mk.I the Finns had (but disliked) was that the 8x .303 (or 7.92 mm) guns were virtualy useless aganst an Il-2's armor though the oil-cooler could be disabled (and the gunner killed) this might stop the completion of a mission. The Brewster was slower than the Hurricane but had a longer fireing time with .50's being better suited to the role. (plus the nose mounted guns were more acurate -no convergence zone-) The B-239 could out-climb the Hurricane I and had similar Maneuverabillity, albeit lower top speed. The P-36's (Hawk-75) that the Finns had also only had RCMG's. Aganst most russian fighters and many twin-engined bombers RCMG's could be decently affective. Even worse with only 4x .303's (or 7.92 mm) of the Finns' Gladiators, though I'd still take it over an I-153 or I-16, who would want want an open cockpit in that climate!

Another thing to note on the F2A's guns is that on all production models (as far as I know) had ammo gauges for the nose guns, one of the few (if not only) a/c in WWII to have one. In this manner pilots would know just how many rounds were left in there nose guns, though they still had to guess for the wing guns.

It should also be noted that the Finn's planes, being early models, were likely built to a higher quality than those produced after the start of WWII. (Particularly the late export Models ie B-339E AKA Buffalo Mk.I) The Finns also made modifications to the engines to improve reliabillity and performance (improved oil circulation by inverting cylinder rings), as well as they didn't have to worry about the gear collapse that carrier based craft did. (neither did other land-based models).


In addition to the friendly handeling of the Brewster the cockpit was also roomy and well organized. (and of course, visibillity was excelent)

 

[kool kitty89]

Oh and I forgot about the VL Humu, though it was a copy and only a single built. (with much subtitute materials due to shortages, similar in construction to the Myrsky)

 

[Elvis]

Humu was wood/metal composite Finn copy of B-239.
Wood used because of the high number of craftsman in that coutry and the vast amount of wood available.
Also, engine was same as russian M-63, so any downed aircraft that had salvagable engines could be swapped out for the Wright 1820's, once they reached TBO.
I think the Finn's never went through with the Humu program because the Russians ended up winning that battle before production could commence.
I'll have to research that article I have, again, and I see if that's mentioned.

Nice pic, btw. Thanks for posting that.



Elvis

 

[SoD Stitch]

Oh and I forgot about the VL Humu, though it was a copy and only a single built. (with much subtitute materials due to shortages, similar in construction to the Myrsky)

What are those engines in front of the Brewster? Do you know? The one on the left looks like a DB601, and the one on the right looks like a V-1710.

 

[kool kitty89]

It probably id a 601. I dont know about the right one, maybe a russian engine.

And as for an indigenous Finnish fighter, the Myrsky II was better than the Humu and it's only major problems were with the wooden construction in wet climates. It had 4x 12.7 mm guns concentrated in the nose as well giving good acurate firepower. it was a good 20-30 mph faster than the B-239 as well and climbed as well, though wing loading was somewhat higher. Plus the Myrsky was in production by the time the Humu prototype was ready and the Humu turned out to be heavier than the Brewster as well. Although the Myrsky did have some structural problems as well (mostly in high speed maneuvers) I doubt the Humu would have been much better at this and in most respects it was a decent a/c, although outclassed in 1944 it was still better in some ways than the Me 109's the Finns had received. (wider track landing gear and better low-medium speed aneuverabillity, better visibillity, tougher engine, longer range, armament debatable)

 

[claidemore]

Judging by the bolts on the valve covers, that would be a Merlin engine beside the DB.

 

[Elvis]

What are those engines in front of the Brewster? Do you know? The one on the left looks like a DB601, and the one on the right looks like a V-1710.

Black engine is a Junkers Jumo 211.
Blue engine is either a Rolls or Packard Merlin (I'm leaning towards Rolls).



Elvis

 

[kool kitty89]

Since the Finns (and Russians) had Hurricanes I'd expect it's a Rolls.


And I've done some more reading on export B-339's and most were fitted with R-1820-G105 engines rated for 1,100 hp (the F2A-2 used the 1,200 hp R-1820-40), but they were used engines and almost never produced this power (usually closer to 950 hp), and to make things worse many of the fuel pumps were inadequate ones for Hornet engines, so fuel starvation could occur above 10,000 ft. The did carry twice the ammo as the F2A-2 (500 rpg instead of 250) but there's no point in adding ammo if you can't bring you're guns to bare. Note these were lend-lease a/c and Brewster was having trouble since no money was being paid up-front.

The single exception to the poor engines of the B-339 was for the second half of the Netherlands' order:

From: Brewster 339 in Netherlands East Indies

However, the Wright Cyclone engine was at that time in short supply, and the Dutch government was forced to cut its Brewster order to only 72 planes. There were two separate batches delivered. The first 24 Brewsters delivered to the Netherlands East Indies were powered by Dutch-supplied 1100-hp Wright R-1820-G105 engines, some of which had been taken from DC-3s operated by commercial airlines and reconditioned at the Wright factory. These aircraft were assigned the Dutch serial numbers B3-95 through B3-118. The second batch of 48 aircraft were powered by 1200 hp Wright R-1820-G205 engines purchased directly from Wright. These planes were re-designated Model 339D by the company, and were assigned the Dutch serials B3-119 to B3-167. The two batches were otherwise identical.

The Finns engines were also used but had been refurbished and was a R-1820-G5 rated for 950 hp (1000 hp 5 min emergency, 850 cont.) which it did make and which was the same power as the F2A-1's engine (well matched to the lighter airframe), plus the Finns modified the engine to improve oil circulation. They also bought their a/c up front and were not lend-lease.


What they should have done with the F2A-2 (for a proper F2A-3) was lighten the internal fuel capacity (particularly in the wings) to 70% (back to about the F2a-1'S 160 gal with self-sealing tanks) and improve self-sealing tanks, add provisions for drop tanks (2x 40 gal) on the wing racks, keep ammo load the same as in the F2A-3 (1300 rounds total), improve pilot armor to protect shoulders/arms (the most effective plate placement is a triangle piece the same size and shape as the roll-bar fitted to the roll-bar, along with seat armor for the pilot) and add armor glass to windscreen, add other upgrades (improved electrical systems etc, weight negligibly affected) add more powerful engine if possible.
These changes should keep empty weight the same (if not lower than the F2A-2, though a heavier engine may change this) and empty equipped weight should be similar, takeoff weight max load (clean) should be similar to the F2A-2, range (clean) will be less, but max range should be about the same with drop tanks, and max take-off should be similar to the F2A-3. (~1,600 mi, but drop tanks give the option to dump excess load when necessary).
So altered it could have been a good plane with improved fuel and pilot protection and ammo load with performance similar to the F2A-2, and better with an engine upgrade. Though it didn't really need a more powerful engine as 1,200 hp for a ~6,000 lb take-off weight is quite a bit, and more powerful engines may not have been available at the time, plus the R-1820-40 had good altitude performance. The decrease in internal tankage alone should take off ~500 lbs.

 

[Elvis]

And I've done some more reading on export B-339's and most were fitted with R-1820-G105 engines rated for 1,100 hp (the F2A-2 used the 1,200 hp R-2800-40)

KK89,

Where did you find the info that any F2A's were outfitted with R-2800's?
I've never heard that before.
All I've ever heard or seen was that they had one variation or another of the R-1820 and I think I saw somewhere where some were fitted with R-1830's.

R-1820-G5 was made for export. I think it was specified by the Finn's because it was the closest match to other european versions of that engine already in service, but don't quote me on that.

I agree with you on the points about the F2A-2, except you forgot the addition of the R-1820-56 engine, which made 1350HP (and with that extra power, a 4-bladed prop probably would've been a nice addition, as well).



Elvis

 

[kool kitty89]

Sorry, 1820-40. I fixed it. Also, most of those figures are from JoeB's site.

JoeB's site supports the (almost) 2:1 kill ratio, but not for the Buffalo Mk.I with the commonwealth, but with the B-339C/D (the D had the 1,200 hp R-1820-G205 engine) with the Dutch. From: Brewster 339 in Netherlands East Indies

The Brewsters were completely outclassed by the Japanese fighters which opposed them. The Model 339C and D were inferior to the Japanese Zero in speed, maneuverability and in climb rate. During three months of combat, 30 Brewsters were lost in air combat, 15 were destroyed on the ground, and a number were lost in accidents. 17 pilots were killed in action. Against these losses, Dutch Brewsters claimed 55 enemy aircraft destroyed, a victory-to-loss ratio of almost two to one.

On the other hand he also says this about the Buffalo Mk.I: Brewster Buffalo Mk I

Many official British historical sources blame the loss of Malaya and Singapore largely on the Buffalo's poor performance. However, the picture is not entirely that of an unmitigated disaster, and many Buffalo-equipped units gave a good account of themselves before they were overwhelmed by superior Japanese numbers. Accurate figures on the combat losses of British Buffalos are difficult to come by. Approximately 60 to 70 Buffalos were lost in air combat, 40 were destroyed on the ground, twenty were lost in various non-combat related accidents, four were transferred to the Dutch, and six were evacuated to India. Commonwealth Buffalo squadrons claimed at least 80 kills, and some units may have achieved a 2-to-1 kill ratio.

So the 2:1 was for individual units, and the overall air to air kill:loss would be 1.14-1.33:1 in favor of the Buffalo.


And the Buffalo could out-dive (both in acceleration and dive limit) the Zero, Oscar, and Nate. (and Hurricane) Though the Wildcat, P-39 and P-40 could out-dive the F2A in most models.

 

[Elvis]

I think its a safe bet that just about anything could outdive the early Japanese planes.
Those planes were built to dogfight, WWI style, so they were built lightly with quick reacting controls.
The downside of building light, is the airframes didn't seem as strong as the heavier Allied planes.
One F4F tactic was to get a Zero on your tail, then go into a dive, with the Zero keeping hot pursuit.
At a certain point, the Wildcat pilot would steepen the dive.
The F4's airframe could handle the added stress, but when the Zero pilot tried to hold pursuit, the manuver would rip the tail right off the airplane.

One thing that gets me about the Buff was how large the control surface was on the vertical stabilizer.
It's like half the tail!

...and no prob on the typo. I figured it was either that, or you were going to revel me with some eye-opening info I was heretofore unaware of.

That actually reminds me of something else, but I'll save it for another thread.

BTW, when you stated "Overall Kill ratio" were you including the Finn's record in there?




elvis

 

[kool kitty89]

The Zero had a similar tactic in the reverse aganst the Wildcat: the Zero pilot with a Wlidcat in persuit would enter a climb and wait for the Wildcat to stall out and then pounce...

Didn't work too well aganst the hellcat!

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aIz9I7GG-Ps

 

[kool kitty89]

Some good pictures of the F2A here: Brewster F2A Buffalo
and here American airplanes: Bo - Bu

That second one has pictures of the "dazzel camoflauge" shown earlier.

And on the same site they have Bell's stuf too: American airplanes: Bell

 

[Elvis]

Some good pictures of the F2A here: Brewster F2A Buffalo
That second one has pictures of the "dazzel camoflauge" shown earlier.

I always thought that paint scheme had a cool "Art Deco" look to it.
Quite fitting, considering the time.
That scheme actually goes back to WWI and was used on ships.
It was said that the crazy lines broke up the ships colouring and profile, when viewed at a great distance and it was harder to tell what was floating out there.




Elvis

 

[Graeme]

It was said that the crazy lines broke up the ships colouring and profile, when viewed at a great distance and it was harder to tell what was floating out there.

 

[Elvis]

Ol' Graeme tryin' to put one over on me, eh?

Ya, don't fool me! I know a hot dog cart when I see one!





(hehe, just kidding. Its hard to tell from such a small pic, but it looks like there's either one or two boats there. I seem to remember the QE was painted up similarly, during the war...or was that the QM?).




Elvis

 

[kool kitty89]

I see 2... But there could be some smaller ones there blending in...