Wild_Bill_Kelso
Senior Master Sergeant
- 3,231
- Mar 18, 2022
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If you look at online sources, dive bombing is considered anything from 45 to 60 degrees, some sources state as high as 80 degrees. I look at 45 degrees at the "glass half empty or half full." I've flown aircraft in a 45 degree dive, it's pretty steep IMO
A-36 certainly. The D4Y from the Japanese.What would qualify as a fast dive-bomber? The only aircraft I can think of that fit that description operationally was the A-36.
Everything is relative.What would qualify as a fast dive-bomber? The only aircraft I can think of that fit that description operationally was the A-36.
I suppose that providing the prop can be cleared, anything that can carry a bomb can utilize a deep descent angle to improve accuracy.A lone F4F bombed and sank an enemy destroyer by bombing it during the battle for Wake Island. Dive bombing?
Some of this may depend on the pull out.I suppose that providing the prop can be cleared, anything that can carry a bomb can utilize a deep descent angle to improve accuracy.
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I was under the impression that having seen the Luftwaffe's work in Europe inspired this decision. In the USAAC, they were generally seen as slow and clumsy, lacking the range, payload, and defensive capability of the heavy bomber.
As I recall, the Germans were inspired to go with dive-bombers by dint of Udet observing a USAAC dive-bombing demonstration, going back to Germany, and encouraging RLM to get to work on it. Didn't he buy a Curtiss Shrike at that time on Germany's behalf?
So while the RAF may have been inspired by the Luftwaffe, they in turn copped it from USAAC, even though the latter did nowhere near development on the technique that the Germans did.
Funny how his stuff works.
R rob Saparot, not sure if the destroyer-sinking you mention was a Wildcat dive-bombing or glide-bombing. It did result in setting off the destroyer's depth charges (as mentioned above), and sinking the orc. It was a 100-lb bomb. Either way, the Japanese were stuffed until their CarDiv Five (Hiryu, Soryu) showed up and cleared the skies for the invasion force.
Kinda reminds me of the bazooka / panzershreck lineage
Just as an aside, the reports I've read is that the USMC developed dive bombing during one of the periodic US invasions of one Central American country or another.As I recall, the Germans were inspired to go with dive-bombers by dint of Udet observing a USAAC dive-bombing demonstration, going back to Germany, and encouraging RLM to get to work on it. Didn't he buy a Curtiss Shrike at that time on Germany's behalf?
So while the RAF may have been inspired by the Luftwaffe, they in turn copped it from USAAC, even though the latter did nowhere near development on the technique that the Germans did.
Funny how his stuff works.
SaparotRob , not sure if the destroyer-sinking you mention was a Wildcat dive-bombing or glide-bombing. It did result in setting off the destroyer's depth charges (as mentioned above), and sinking the orc. It was a 100-lb bomb. Either way, the Japanese were stuffed until their CarDiv Five (Hiryu, Soryu) showed up and cleared the skies for the invasion force.
Just as an aside, the reports I've read is that the USMC developed dive bombing during one of the periodic US invasions of one Central American country or another.
Probably true, as dive bombing is really a pretty obvious extension of strafing. I wouldn't be surprised if it was independently developed by several air forces, roughly simultaneously.Yeah, I'm not saying USAAC originated it, just that Udet saw it and liked it, to my reading. Myself, I bet it came about in airfield/trench raids in WWI.
Probably true, as dive bombing is really a pretty obvious extension of strafing. I wouldn't be surprised if it was independently developed by several air forces, roughly simultaneously.
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One of the stories I've heard about the RAF and FAA and dive bombing is that they recognized that the bombs of the time (early to mid 1930s) practical for carriage by carrier aircraft wouldn't be able to penetrate capital ships' deck armor (probably true, and probably true until the development of PGM), so a more effective technique than heating the ship would be to drop a high-explosive bomb so it would detonate adjacent to the ship's side. This required a sophisticated sight which could never be made to work right.
Of course, PGM were a much better plan. One wonders what would happen had the RAF and FAA spent some serious coin on developing a guided AP bomb that could be dropped from 20,000 ft or so and hit and penetrate a battleship's deck armor. Too bad the Germans developed one first. One wonders what a precision-guided Tallboy would do to the Yamato.....
Except "aiming to miss" is even harder than trying to hit the target. The bomb has to be very close to do any serious damage. For example:-Or on the other hand understand, and roll with, plopping them alongside and hoping for the best. PGMs were sketchy even by 1943-45, but breaking plates with hydrodynamic pressure was already fairly well understood, and it allows for near-misses as well as dead-strikes.
A near-miss from a 1000-lb bomb on a battleship might be even better than a direct hit atopdecks. Water isn't compressible until about 30,000 psi, so near-misses on BBs can be useful, insofar as they open up the hull rather than wreck the topsides. Depends on the sitch, no? Water-hammer is a thing.
Except "aiming to miss" is even harder than trying to hit the target. The bomb has to be very close to do any serious damage.
So, there wasn't exactly a specific angle that was uniformly used?If you look at online sources, dive bombing is considered anything from 45 to 60 degrees, some sources state as high as 80 degrees.
Was this a night-operation? I do remember an F6F-3E/N or F6F-5N doing a dive-attack on a destroyer at night which either sank it or disabled the ship in 1944.A lone F4F bombed and sank an enemy destroyer by bombing it during the battle for Wake Island.
Understood.A-36 certainly. The D4Y from the Japanese. Pe-2 from the Soviets.
Was that actually the criteria that was used for being competitive? I do remember some dive-bomber concepts such as the XA-41 which was considered inadequate in speed because it wasn't competitive with fighters (top speed was 333 at sea level; 363 at altitude and 354 at some altitude).We'd probably want a ww2 bomber to achieve at least 90% of speed of the common fighters in order to be considered fast?
Out of curiosity, what qualities were generally desired in a WWII dive-bomber from a handling stand-point? It seemed the USN and USAAF had different ideals for what they wanted (the USAAF seemed to have higher g-load requirements).Ability to deal with interceptors (especial with slow control response) was not great and ability to deal with AA guns operating in daylight..........not great.
Yeah, so you'd want a plane that has very good aerodynamic breaking so it can dive suitably steep without picking up too much speed, while being able to release suitably low and not rip the wings off the plane, incapacitate the pilot, or get hit by shrapnel?A lot depends on expectations of accuracy as to what attack angle/profile is going to be used. Everything is a compromise.
Why would it fall 16 f/s in the first second and not 32?In a vacuum the bomb will accelerate at 32fps/ps and will fall 16 ft the first second, Plus the speed of the plane in the dive.
I think it was an F11C actually.As I recall, the Germans were inspired to go with dive-bombers by dint of Udet observing a USAAC dive-bombing demonstration, going back to Germany, and encouraging RLM to get to work on it. Didn't he buy a Curtiss Shrike at that time on Germany's behalf?
From what I've seen and read not really although it seemed the USN favored 60/70 degrees (I think that's mentioned in the video clip I posted earlier).So, there wasn't exactly a specific angle that was uniformly used?
Followed by Formidable in the autumnI had forgotten Illustrious was repaired and refitted in Norfolk Navy Yard, in the Summer of 1941.