Brits didn't want B-17?

[nuuumannn]

A little bit of clarification is needed here. Just how much input was there from the experience in Europe to go from the B17C/D to the B-17E given the amount of change that took place?

The B-17E was ordered on 30 Aug 1940 and first flew on 5 Sept 1941.

To clarify, British experience with the B-17C and criticism of the fact the type had no armour plating, self-sealing tanks and inadequate defensive armament were transmitted to the Americans in time for B-17Ds to be modified with better armour protection, self-sealing tanks and improved armament, along with the same modifications to the remaining B-17Cs in USAAC service. This is common knowledge and can be found in most books on the B-17.

There was no time for RAF feedback to reach Boeing to allow them to make the extensive changes required to arrive at the B-17E.

What? Do you think the British relied on carrier pigeons to relay their information across the Atlantic? There was ample time between May 1941 when 90 Sqn received its first B-17Cs through to production of the B-17E. While its structural and aerodynamic design had been settled on in late 1940, metal wasn't cut until later in 1941. The modifications made to the B-17C and D models in USAAC service were also applied to the B-17E; armour plating, self-sealing tanks, etc. At the time of the B-17E's design in late 1940, by and large, the USAAC did not have these innovations fitted to its in-service aircraft and the Americans did not have a production powered gun turret, although several manufacturers were investigating the issue - arguments had been had about the fact Britain had turrets on their bombers despite there being resistance to them in the USAAC.

From the outset the B-17E was to be fitted with one and it was from the British that a production gun turret for the type came. A tail turret was also proposed initially, but the weight of a turret below the massive new fin dangerously shifted the aircraft's proposed cg. Boulton Paul and Nash & Thompson sent examples of turrets to Wright Field in 1940, and these were extensively studied by the US turret manufacturers resulting in the Sperry company studying the Boulton Paul Type T top turret, which was rejected by the British Minister of Aircraft Production in 1940 because it was a 50 cal armed twin turret. The MAP wanted existing turrets in production and at that time the British did not have the 50 cal under licence production, which, it was argued would delay production bombers receiving gun turrets, but that's a different story. The Sperry A 1 top turret eventually fitted to the B-17E was a copy of the Boulton Paul Type T using the same electro-hydraulic operating system but built by US manufacturers, but I digress...

Throughout 1941, based on British experiences in combat since the beginning of the war, these innovations were applied to US combat aircraft, to the extent that at the time of Pearl Harbor, Grumman were hurriedly retrofitting F4F fighters with self-sealing tanks and armor before they were embarked on US carriers.

 

[pb43]

The RAF was not interested in high altitude daylight strategic bombing, and trying to do night bombing from the higher altitudes would have yielded even worse results. The B-24 was most probably of interest due to its big boxy fuselage and exceptional range. The RAF even secured a non-turboed LB-30 for use as Churchill's personal transport and they flew that bird all over the place..

The high altitude capabilities of the B-17 and B-24 looked even less attractive to the RAF given their limited experience with those operations.

But note that not only was the B-24 a favorite for the British for ASW, enabling them to close the Air Gap in the Atlantic, but when the RAF decided they needed large jamming aircraft to support their nigh ops over Europe, they went straight to the USAAF and asked for B-17's and B-24's. The high altitude capabilities of the American heavies not only enabled wider coverage for the jamming but also made them less vulnerable to interception.

My dad was at Lyneham when Churchills LB-30 arrived with autopilot problems, which my dad fixed!

 

[Geoffrey Sinclair]

The US made plenty of changes to aircraft in production 1940/41 due to the lessons learnt in combat, changes that were being done before the first Bomber Command sorties with the B-17. The lead times setting up production lines meant the RAF B-17 experience was too late for the early B-17E, which came with a manned dorsal turret and a remote controlled under turret.

Many changes to the B-17D and E were due general upgrade in defensive to the generic combat experience passed on in 1940/41, they had nothing to do

The British record 4 Fortress arrivals in April 1941, 15 in May and 1 in June.

AN531 and AN534 the first arrivals on 13 April

40-3099 and 3100, the last two B-17D were accepted on 29 April 1941.

AN518 the last B-17C arrival in Britain on 14 June.

First A&AEE B-17 report, on noise levels, dated 30 June

First RAF B-17 operation 8 July

A&AEE brief report on B-17 handling dated 13 August

An early A&AEE report stated heating was so good aircrew could be in normal uniforms without gloves or boots when the outside air temperature was at -55C

41-2393 and 2394, the first two B-17E were accepted on 17 September 1941

Last Bomber Command B-17C operation 25 September, 51 sorties done 24 recorded as attacking.

Then comes time to compile reports, vet them, then publish.